The need to keep reforming

21 comments ↓

#1 Lars Walker on 10.31.08 at 9:35 am

Everywhere in the Protestant churches, the authority of Scripture has been set aside, and in every single case that has been followed by a slide into heresy and apostasy.

Sola scriptura! (The other sola’s are central too, but this is where the fight is in our time.)

#2 William on 10.31.08 at 10:00 am

I pray that the Church will return to male headship and throw out the worldly ideals of feminism. And if you think your own denomination is immune to this, then wait a few more years and you might be surprised.

#3 Susan aka organshoes on 10.31.08 at 10:01 am

Stop counting heads and taking pulses.
Enough shenanigans with our services, our missions, and our models and ideas for church.
Realize that, in the realms of heresies and alterations and re-inventions, there is really nothing new.
Free the Word to work its way.

#4 Susan aka organshoes on 10.31.08 at 10:26 am

Semper Reformanda
(’semper ref’, to those on the inside. A hat tip–and no apologies–to the Marines)

#5 WebMonk on 10.31.08 at 10:28 am

How about “Chill on the rhetoric!”

Be it rants against/for a political personage, or rants about a specific topic, or rants about another denomination and how they are falling so short. Not that they shouldn’t be dealt with, but rants aren’t the way.

I don’t mind discussing these things as Christians, and they can even be handled from the pulpit in a proper way, but one of things that Christ calls for is unity within the Church (not the same as union within the church). Other places say people will know us by our love. St. Paul scolds lawsuits between Christians, but that gets tossed aside. Vicious excoriations between Christians and denominations are quite common, but Paul talks about those in the same way as lawsuits.

Might there be too many “reformations” going on right now - LCMS is the pure church, no Baptists are, no the RCC is, no Reformed churches have it right, no Emerging-style churches do!

Perhaps a Reformation by an ending of some of these “reformations” that are more like plain, old-fashioned splits over disagreements? That might be self-contradictory.

#6 William on 10.31.08 at 10:45 am

To Webmonk: That is already being done by the “mere Christianity” folks, of whom I am one. I commend to you an interesting article titled “The Divisions We Must Sustain” by Robert P. George who both argues for Christian unity and recognizes that certain divisions must be sustained until Christ comes to sort it all out:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-06-050-f

#7 Bryan Lindemood on 10.31.08 at 10:51 am

It is best when we concentrate our reformation instincts on our own local church by holding our own feet (and the feet of our pastors) to the fire of God’s Word. This includes checking our faith and practice for faithfulness to God’s Word and to the confessions our own church says it believes and teaches. This means daring to be in the Word together with folks in our own church who might annoy us and working at being Christian to them while working to fix our erring ways when we are brought to realize them. We ought also to pray for and seek for ways to support the reforming work of churchmen or women who have greater authority in the church than we have ourselves. We ought to also pray for continued reformation in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches as well. After all, Popes and Councils and fancy services come and go, but the Word of the Lord remains forever.

#8 Nemo on 10.31.08 at 11:44 am

Amen to WebMonk @ 5

What is needed is the ability to distinguish between core doctrines and secondary doctrines, and the willingness to welcome as fellow believers those we agree with on the first but not necessarily on the second.

#9 Susan aka organshoes on 10.31.08 at 12:41 pm

Not ‘just doctrine’, guys, but doctrine as it feeds practice for the furtherance of faith.
And faith is all about wherein our faith lies.
Either it’s Christ crucified for the sins of the world, or a Christ who awaits my decision.
The differences are really sharper than we wish to acknowledge, and more important than many of us are apparently able to admit. Focusing on our similarities means the focus remaining on one another–on ourselves.
Big mistake, no matter the intentions.
Anyone who thinks that’s mere Lutheran cheerleading has forgotten what Christ died for: to save us from our sinful selves; not to seek and to affirm our best intentions, hopes, or efforts for this world.
And perhaps forgotten what the Reformation sought to attain: a return to the freedom of forgiveness in Christ; not a new slavery to our own efforts or desires.
We were not made autonomous or free to be careless through the efforts of the Reformers; we were made free in the forgiveness of Christ, but also stewards of the pure Word.
That stewardship is important; a lack of it likewise important. Carelessness needs to be addressed, in order to be avoided and/or excised.
Semper Reformanda. (Really, we’re always returning.)

#10 Mary on 10.31.08 at 12:45 pm

Faith causes constant reforming. Too many beliefs teach a visible conclusion or culmination in this world.

#11 Anon on 10.31.08 at 12:58 pm

The divided-life spirituality does seem to be still with us.

A belief that only the clergy can interpret the Bible.

There is a rise in interest in quasi-gnostic spiritual practices developed by the medieval mystics.

People have forgotten the difference between *am* baptized and *was* baptized.

The humiliation of the word as used by Jacques Ellul Image is replacing word once again.

I don’t recall “Chill on the rhetoric” especially directed at only one side, being part of the Reformation.

Though it is true that we ought to honor Christ’s high priestly prayer and renounce party spirit. But not truth. It is possible to hold on to truth and love one’s brother who has some errors. And to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

#12 WebMonk on 10.31.08 at 1:00 pm

One of the things that I’ve seen develop in the “reformation” of the mere Christianity groups - they start developing their own groups that are basically “mere Christianity” denominations. There’s something odd about a distinct church forming around the concept that churches ought to be more united together.

I completely understand the dynamic - like minds tend to group together - and I don’t think it’s wrong. It’s just a bit odd. Maybe an area which needs to be watched.

#8 - those “core doctrines” are a bit tricky to nail down though. Ask a Lutheran and, certainly in practice, a core doctrine is the Real Presence. Ask a Baptist and, again in practice, a core doctrine is believer’s baptismal submersion. Ask a Roman Catholic and a core doctrine is the authority of the Church invested in the RCC.

I get what you mean though, and tend to agree. It’s just that the discussion, and Lord knows the implementation!, of those ideas get really, really complicated.

#13 Rev. Bob on 10.31.08 at 1:39 pm

I heard a sermon on the radio yesterday that asked the question, “How do you know if you are saved?” The two answers I heard (as I had to leave my car) were: 1) If you are saved you will memorize Bible verses and 2) You will hate the sins you committ.

Okay, so I think both of those are good. It is a great practice to memorize (but do I know enough????) and I know I should hate my sin (but do I hate it enough???).

These are just newer forms of works righteousness. All assurance in such situations in found in my work and attitude!!!

Goodness, its like we never had a reformation! Seems to me we need to do exactly what the refomers did and get back to Christ crucified for sinners. It is as important now as it was then!

#14 William on 10.31.08 at 1:41 pm

In case there was any confusion, Touchstone is a magazine contributed to by a variety of representatives of the different denominations. It’s not another attempt at the Church of Christ, nor is it a church at all!

Why reinvent the core doctrines already defined in the Nicene Creed? If there’s any room for serious debate of the Creed, it’s over the filioque. After that, all orthodox churches (Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants included) subscribe to the content of the creed even if they don’t like creeds.

#15 WebMonk on 10.31.08 at 2:02 pm

Rev. Bob, in a possible defense of whoever you heard on the radio, there are a lot of guys out there who are horribly imprecise. It’s possible that he is looking at signs of existing conversion. Or maybe not.

My own pastor had made some comments on that same topic which I thought extremely odd considering what I know he believes. Turns out he had taken a slight rabbit trail off his notes and wasn’t precisely speaking.

He very definitely doesn’t believes there is requirement of behavior for salvation, but when he spoke it sounded like he did.

Or …. it’s VERY possible that there was a works salvation aspect.

#16 Joel on 10.31.08 at 3:04 pm

The way assurance of salvation is preached these days is badly in need of reformation…well, if you’re not sure, pray again, *be sincere*, write your name in your Bible and pound a stake in your backyard and tell the Devil to stop bothering you. Silly catholic ritual with no basis in Scripture (or in anything before the 20th century for that matter). We have a lot of people believing they’re saved when they’re not because the sum total of the gospel they’ve heard is some mish-mash of the crucifixion story together with “if you pray this prayer, you’re saved even if you feel totally unchanged.” I can tell you, true assurance is a whole lot more real and permanent than this silly stake-pounding business.

#17 “What still needs reforming?” | The Daily Scroll on 10.31.08 at 3:32 pm

[…] this Reformation Day, Gene Veith asks us to comment on his blog […]

#18 FW on 11.02.08 at 7:46 am

#16 joel

the Lutheran reformation WAS all about a sinner being able to be certain of his salvation.

The Lutheran answer to this uncertainty is a rather simple one on this point.

Lutherans point christians to their baptism and to trust in what that baptism delivered.

This is the thing that has touched them physically and personally, like a personal decision is personal, and yet unlike decision or faith within us, is simultaneously something outside of them that is completely a work not of men, but of God himself delivered by God through the seemingly humble instrument of his church and water that is “water, but not simple water only….”.

This, of course allowed Lutherans to accept other western catholic christians as truly christian and so not radically separate themselves from the western church. this understanding of baptism is what allowed Lutherans to identify the Pope as the antichrist and yet acknowledge him as truly of the church and offer to be ordered under him.

#19 FW on 11.02.08 at 7:48 am

… dr vieth… thanks! glad to be able to be back.

#20 FW on 11.02.08 at 7:25 pm

#14 william

“After that, all orthodox churches (Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants included) subscribe to the content of the creed even if they don’t like creeds.”

what do you make of the line in the creed that says we believe in “one baptism FOR the remission of sins”? what does that mean to you and do you really feel that all christians accept this line literally?

#21 FW on 11.02.08 at 7:30 pm

#5 webmonk

to further your thoughts…

a church that claims to be the whole church is actually sectarian (note churches that claim the name THE church, or THE church of christ or THE catholic(=universal) church or THE universal church….

on the other hand, a part of the church, a denomination or sect or whatever you want to call it, loses it´s claim to rightfully exist if it does not feel that to it´s part, rightfully belongs the whole church. If a church does not believe this, then they probably have a moral obligation to merge with some other group and cease to maintain a separate identity and witness.

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