Comments on: Sacramental theology & the imagination http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/ Christianity, Culture, Vocation Sun, 21 Mar 2010 03:34:58 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Steve Rowe http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9917 Steve Rowe Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:06:08 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9917 My first response to your comments is that I think we might be talking about apples and oranges. Frank Shaffer is a literary novelist and judging from the examples of fine writing you have given it seems to me that you prefer genre fiction. I don’t want to slag genre fiction (I am a passionately devoted to the British fantasy writer Terrey Prattchet-an atheist for those of you who are keeping score) but they are very different types of writing. Frank Shaffer was born in to a wonderfully idiosyncratic family and He would have been a fool if he had not mined it for material for his novels. When you describe Franks books as a “tissue of lies” are you talking about the Novels? It’s true that the parents in the Calvin Becker trilogy are for the most part portrayed as cultural philistines but so what its fiction! If one were trying to paint a portrait of fundamentalism in the 60’s the highly cultured Shaffer family would hardly have been respective. In fiction after all what matters is that it reads true not weather or not it is true. I don’t want to go to the mat to defend all of Shaffer’s books. I think his second novel “Saving Grandma” was a step down from “ Portofino ” (but still very funny) and his third book “ Zermatt ” read almost as a characterture of the previous two books. I haven’t read any of his other novels but my understanding is that they are uniformly excellent. A close friend of mine (who lost a son in Afghanistan and is also a PK and a convert to Catholicism) loves his military books. I have also read his memoir “Crazy for God” and a lot of the related journalism on the web and else where and it seemed to me to be much adieu about nothing. Frank portrays his parents as flawed human beings not as plaster saints. There is enough holography about the Shaffer’s about with out his son adding to it. As far as I am concerned the most damming thing I ever read about Francis Shaffer was written by Oz Guinness and that was that in all the years he knew Francis he never saw him read a book besides the Bible. My first response to your comments is that I think we might be talking about apples and oranges. Frank Shaffer is a literary novelist and judging from the examples of fine writing you have given it seems to me that you prefer genre fiction. I don’t want to slag genre fiction (I am a passionately devoted to the British fantasy writer Terrey Prattchet-an atheist for those of you who are keeping score) but they are very different types of writing. Frank Shaffer was born in to a wonderfully idiosyncratic family and He would have been a fool if he had not mined it for material for his novels.

When you describe Franks books as a “tissue of lies” are you talking about the Novels? It’s true that the parents in the Calvin Becker trilogy are for the most part portrayed as cultural philistines but so what its fiction! If one were trying to paint a portrait of fundamentalism in the 60’s the highly cultured Shaffer family would hardly have been respective. In fiction after all what matters is that it reads true not weather or not it is true. I don’t want to go to the mat to defend all of Shaffer’s books. I think his second novel “Saving Grandma” was a step down from “ Portofino ” (but still very funny) and his third book “ Zermatt ” read almost as a characterture of the previous two books. I haven’t read any of his other novels but my understanding is that they are uniformly excellent. A close friend of mine (who lost a son in Afghanistan and is also a PK and a convert to Catholicism) loves his military books.

I have also read his memoir “Crazy for God” and a lot of the related journalism on the web and else where and it seemed to me to be much adieu about nothing. Frank portrays his parents as flawed human beings not as plaster saints. There is enough holography about the Shaffer’s about with out his son adding to it. As far as I am concerned the most damming thing I ever read about Francis Shaffer was written by Oz Guinness and that was that in all the years he knew Francis he never saw him read a book besides the Bible.

]]> By: Anon http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9891 Anon Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:46:05 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9891 Steve, Frank also has a vocation as son to his parents. Bearing false witness and not honoring your father and mother were, last I checked, still sins. I, too have lived at L'Abri, and I knew Mrs. Schaeffer for a number of years. I, along with Os Guinness and others who knew them far better, stand by what they and I have said: that Frank is bearing false witness. not a slight exaggeration but a vicious attack that is barely recognizable, and that only in some incidental details. As to his writing, Frank is no Milton, Bunyan, Shakespeare or Tolkien. He can't light a candle to our own Lars Walker. I don't recall that Hawthorne was a Calvinist holding to any of the traditional confessions or canons of Calvinism. It would indeed be interesting to look into whether premillenialism had such an impact on writing, whether that of the apostolic and sub-apostolic church, that of the Franciscans, or the historical premillenialism of Buswell and Schaeffer. It would be interesting to look into the universes imagined by Zwinglian versus Lutheran versus Catholic versus Orthodox writers. I agree, BTW that the Reformed ought logically, and I think practically do, write believable human characters. Perhaps it is fantasy (though that isn't really the right term I'm looking for) that non-sacramental writers do such a poor job at. And where there might be exceptions, why are they there? I think that this is an important area to look into, and potentially fruitful, and very different from the question of whether the Schaeffers were pro-intellect or anti-intellectual, pro-art or against it, whether they, as their writings and tapes show, opposed the schlockkultur of American evangelicalism, or if in fact, as Frank portrays in his novels, promoted just that. Whether Dr. Schaeffer didn't really believe as Frank claims, or if in fact he -did- believe. Steve,
Frank also has a vocation as son to his parents. Bearing false witness and not honoring your father and mother were, last I checked, still sins.

I, too have lived at L’Abri, and I knew Mrs. Schaeffer for a number of years. I, along with Os Guinness and others who knew them far better, stand by what they and I have said: that Frank is bearing false witness. not a slight exaggeration but a vicious attack that is barely recognizable, and that only in some incidental details.

As to his writing, Frank is no Milton, Bunyan, Shakespeare or Tolkien. He can’t light a candle to our own Lars Walker.

I don’t recall that Hawthorne was a Calvinist holding to any of the traditional confessions or canons of Calvinism.

It would indeed be interesting to look into whether premillenialism had such an impact on writing, whether that of the apostolic and sub-apostolic church, that of the Franciscans, or the historical premillenialism of Buswell and Schaeffer.

It would be interesting to look into the universes imagined by Zwinglian versus Lutheran versus Catholic versus Orthodox writers.

I agree, BTW that the Reformed ought logically, and I think practically do, write believable human characters. Perhaps it is fantasy (though that isn’t really the right term I’m looking for) that non-sacramental writers do such a poor job at. And where there might be exceptions, why are they there?

I think that this is an important area to look into, and potentially fruitful, and very different from the question of whether the Schaeffers were pro-intellect or anti-intellectual, pro-art or against it, whether they, as their writings and tapes show, opposed the schlockkultur of American evangelicalism, or if in fact, as Frank portrays in his novels, promoted just that. Whether Dr. Schaeffer didn’t really believe as Frank claims, or if in fact he -did- believe.

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9885 Steve Rowe Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:52:30 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9885 Hello Anon This discussion started with the thesis “Evangelicals don’t write good Novels because they don’t have a sacramental theology”. I am sympathetic to this argument (I was born into a classically evangelical family, became reformed and now worship as an Anglican) but I think it’s wrong. The reformed tradition has produced far too many great artists in all disciplines. One of the other posters argued that this was because many of the early puritan writers had had the benefits of Classical and/or Catholic educations maybe you can make the case with respect to Milton but what about Nathaniel Hawthorne and Herman Melville? Please keep in mind that the institutions that were founded by the puritans continue to champion classical learning even today (Harvard, Yale, and Princeton ect – yes I know they have been a little lax recently). I think the real problem is pre-millennium eschatology and a poor doctrine of vocation. Most evangelicals just don’t think that the arts are important. They are just too concerned with saving souls and making money (in that order I hope). I am afraid you reaction to Portofino is symptomatic of the problem. You seem to think that Frank Shaffer first obligation when he sat down to write his book was to his Family and not to his vocation (Artist/writer). Leaving aside the accuracy of his portrait of his family (My fiancé and many of my friends who have live at L'Abri found it convincing if a bit hyperbolic). The book has spoken deeply to many veterans of fundamentalism (my self included). It is after all a Novel. The one person that comes off worst in Frank’s memoir is Frank himself and I think is intentional. Today’s Christen artists are in an almost impossible bind should I be faithful to my calling as an artist or the expectation of my church. Our entire culture has to change if we want to see quality art that reflects a holistic edifying Christian worldview. Until then the best stuff (like Frank’s work) will paint a picture that many of us find unsettling. God Bless Steve in Toronto Hello Anon
This discussion started with the thesis “Evangelicals don’t write good Novels because they don’t have a sacramental theology”. I am sympathetic to this argument (I was born into a classically evangelical family, became reformed and now worship as an Anglican) but I think it’s wrong. The reformed tradition has produced far too many great artists in all disciplines. One of the other posters argued that this was because many of the early puritan writers had had the benefits of Classical and/or Catholic educations maybe you can make the case with respect to Milton but what about Nathaniel Hawthorne and Herman Melville? Please keep in mind that the institutions that were founded by the puritans continue to champion classical learning even today (Harvard, Yale, and Princeton ect – yes I know they have been a little lax recently). I think the real problem is pre-millennium eschatology and a poor doctrine of vocation. Most evangelicals just don’t think that the arts are important. They are just too concerned with saving souls and making money (in that order I hope). I am afraid you reaction to Portofino is symptomatic of the problem. You seem to think that Frank Shaffer first obligation when he sat down to write his book was to his Family and not to his vocation (Artist/writer). Leaving aside the accuracy of his portrait of his family (My fiancé and many of my friends who have live at L’Abri found it convincing if a bit hyperbolic). The book has spoken deeply to many veterans of fundamentalism (my self included). It is after all a Novel. The one person that comes off worst in Frank’s memoir is Frank himself and I think is intentional. Today’s Christen artists are in an almost impossible bind should I be faithful to my calling as an artist or the expectation of my church. Our entire culture has to change if we want to see quality art that reflects a holistic edifying Christian worldview. Until then the best stuff (like Frank’s work) will paint a picture that many of us find unsettling.
God Bless
Steve in Toronto

]]> By: Anon http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9867 Anon Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:54:48 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9867 Steve, Unfortunately he presents Portofino as representing his family. In reality it represents everything his parents were -against-. I would hardly call it good writing, though it is better than the waste of trees that comes out of most Christian publishing houses. I have met two of his three sisters, and he isn't describing either of them, nor the third from what I hear. He certainly isn't representing his mother! Unfortunately he has gone further and presumed to publish a more recent book (Crazy for God) that is essentially a tissue of lies about his family, those of us blessed to know them at all know how horribly defamatory and distorted his work is. This isn't something to honor. Frank has rejected Christianity as something objectively true, even if he might possibly still go to Orthodox masses - I don't know if he does. Steve, this isn't about teams. This is about why is it that Catholics have written such great works, and protestants (with the exception of some with a sacramentally-infused imagination) do not, and tend to write very pedestrian novels. The article cited proposes a hypothesis. I find it interesting. If there are challenges to this hypothesis, they would be interesting to see, too. Others have said that you have to have a Catholic imagination full of apparitions of saints, Eucharistic miracles, and apparitions of various other orders of beings operating in similar ways to the old pagan gods (but with Godly character). The sacramental hypothesis is somewhat different. What would -you- propose? Steve,
Unfortunately he presents Portofino as representing his family. In reality it represents everything his parents were -against-. I would hardly call it good writing, though it is better than the waste of trees that comes out of most Christian publishing houses. I have met two of his three sisters, and he isn’t describing either of them, nor the third from what I hear. He certainly isn’t representing his mother!

Unfortunately he has gone further and presumed to publish a more recent book (Crazy for God) that is essentially a tissue of lies about his family, those of us blessed to know them at all know how horribly defamatory and distorted his work is. This isn’t something to honor.

Frank has rejected Christianity as something objectively true, even if he might possibly still go to Orthodox masses – I don’t know if he does.

Steve, this isn’t about teams. This is about why is it that Catholics have written such great works, and protestants (with the exception of some with a sacramentally-infused imagination) do not, and tend to write very pedestrian novels. The article cited proposes a hypothesis. I find it interesting. If there are challenges to this hypothesis, they would be interesting to see, too.

Others have said that you have to have a Catholic imagination full of apparitions of saints, Eucharistic miracles, and apparitions of various other orders of beings operating in similar ways to the old pagan gods (but with Godly character). The sacramental hypothesis is somewhat different. What would -you- propose?

]]> By: Steve Rowe http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9858 Steve Rowe Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:15:23 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9858 Look lets cut out the team sports. If you line up all the great Novels to twenty century by religion/denomination and divided by population the Jews would win hands down followed in all likelihood by either the Catholics or the Anglicans what would that tell us about the validity of their theology? Not very much I suspect. You could however infer however that all three of these traditions pulled the arts to the center of there collective culture. Evangelicals on the other hand push Artist out to the fringes. Cheers Steve in Toronto Look lets cut out the team sports. If you line up all the great Novels to twenty century by religion/denomination and divided by population the Jews would win hands down followed in all likelihood by either the Catholics or the Anglicans what would that tell us about the validity of their theology? Not very much I suspect. You could however infer however that all three of these traditions pulled the arts to the center of there collective culture. Evangelicals on the other hand push Artist out to the fringes.

Cheers

Steve in Toronto

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9850 Bror Erickson Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:35:41 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9850 Nietsche also grew up in a pietist setting if memory recalls. Was no wher near being Christian, but he was a literary genius, especially recognizable in the German. I wonder if his lutheran upbringing fostered that in any way. Nietsche also grew up in a pietist setting if memory recalls. Was no wher near being Christian, but he was a literary genius, especially recognizable in the German. I wonder if his lutheran upbringing fostered that in any way.

]]> By: Bror Erickson http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9849 Bror Erickson Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:30:37 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9849 I'll give two more authors of the Lutheran Faith: Kai Munk, Danish play write, Pastor, took a bullet in the head from the Nazi's. Ingerose Paust, Who wrote excellent historical fiction in Eastern Germany as a way of conveying the faith under the communist radar. One more comes to mind, Issak Dennison, author of Babbette's Feast, "Out of Africa" and many other great stories. (Also, she was married to a Bror) Then there was Bergman, not an author per se, and not very Christian, but an artist who grew up in a strict pietist pastor's home, and that upbringing did a lot to shape his art. I do believe later in life he returned to the church. I’ll give two more authors of the Lutheran Faith: Kai Munk, Danish play write, Pastor, took a bullet in the head from the Nazi’s. Ingerose Paust, Who wrote excellent historical fiction in Eastern Germany as a way of conveying the faith under the communist radar.
One more comes to mind, Issak Dennison, author of Babbette’s Feast, “Out of Africa” and many other great stories. (Also, she was married to a Bror) Then there was Bergman, not an author per se, and not very Christian, but an artist who grew up in a strict pietist pastor’s home, and that upbringing did a lot to shape his art. I do believe later in life he returned to the church.

]]> By: richard http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9832 richard Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:51:35 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9832 Dr Veith--you should read Marilynne Robinson's works. She comes out of a Calvinist background (I think Congregational), but her book "Gilead" is chock-full of sacramental symbols. And, oh by the way, it won her a Pulitzer. I'm a little ticked she hasn't received more recognition from the Christian community. Dr Veith–you should read Marilynne Robinson’s works. She comes out of a Calvinist background (I think Congregational), but her book “Gilead” is chock-full of sacramental symbols. And, oh by the way, it won her a Pulitzer. I’m a little ticked she hasn’t received more recognition from the Christian community.

]]> By: JB http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9826 JB Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:39:08 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9826 He remains in the Orthodox church. He remains in the Orthodox church.

]]> By: Veith http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9814 Veith Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:59:29 +0000 http://www.geneveith.com/sacramental-theology-the-imagination/_757/#comment-9814 Has Frankie Schaeffer--sorry, Frank Schaeffer--left Orthodoxy too? Has Frankie Schaeffer–sorry, Frank Schaeffer–left Orthodoxy too?

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