Surely that is a contradiction in terms! The partial-birth abortionist Dr. George R. Tiller was murdered in Wichita as he handed out bulletins at the Sunday service at Reformation Lutheran Church. (That is an ELCA congregation. He was excommunicated from his original LCMS congregation.) So we have not only murder but sacrilege, the violation of a church at worship. A suspect has been captured. All we need is to be identified with terrorists. No, we will have to explain, we don’t believe in homicide. (We are against homicide, which is why we are against abortion. After the pro-life movement has made some significant progress, get ready for a pro-abortion backlash. I hesitated to blog on this, knowing what some of you might say–that we are glad Tiller is dead, a mass-murderer himself–and I feared playing into our enemies’ hands. But I feel in all honesty we’ve got to bring this up.
Pro-life terrorism
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I guess God got tired of being mocked.
The sacrilege here was that the leadership of Tiller’s ELCA congregation, knowing about Tiller’s “profession,” didn’t excommunicate him, too.
I read somewhere that the way abortion laws were decided in this country (by the courts) contributed to the continuing conflicts. In countries where the people decided the laws, there is less violence. (I wish I could find that article now.)
I think I agree with this. If laws were decided by congress or state legislatures, some of these people wouldn’t feel so desperate to take matters in their own hands.
And if the laws were created by the people’s representatives they probably would have been a little more balanced. I don’t think any country in Europe allows late term abortions as freely as we do in America.
“I don’t think any country in Europe allows late term abortions as freely as we do in America.”
To be fair, weren’t the partial birth abortions–for which Tiller was infamous, I think–outlawed by federal law, which withstood Supreme Court scrutiny? (I could be wrong.) Now, I guess late term abortions (anything in the third trimester, right?) aren’t all illegal, and from what I’ve heard, many countries in Europe are stricter than we are on this front. Admittedly, I don’t know all of the specifics on this.
I agree with Dr. Veith.
And the killing of the abortionist reminds me of anti-Vietnam war protesters, against the bombing of Hanoi, Cambodia, etc.and for peace, bombing ROTC buildings, taking innocent lives, etc. That too made no sense. On this morning’s Today show, a woman from the congregation queried, How could such evil happen in a church? Yes. How could it? And how could such evil persist, unchallenged by the pastor(s), to a doctor, baptized in Christ, taking life and not preserving it? This too makes no sense. Being an ELCA pastor, I have known colleagues who will not speak the Truth, at risk of losing a congregant. Or risking a hard discussion that might lead to repentance.
The killing was wicked, perverse and un-Christian, and I hope the perpetrator is prosecuted to the full extent of the law (unlike an unborn child, he has committed an act deserving of death).
Isn’t there a Two Kingdoms issue here? Taking up weapons that belong only to the earthly kingdom to fight the battles of the heavenly one?
“As Tiller’s Murder Proves, Lack of Church Discipline Can Be Deadly” –an article by Rev. C J Conner: http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/6412910539.html
So far the media coverage I’ve seen has been careful to state that pro-life organizations have all quickly disavowed this murder and made it clear that they do not in any way approve of this.
At this point, they are also stating that the police have not offered any motive for the killing yet, though they have a suspect in custody and are quite sure they’ve got the right man.
I’m actually hoping and praying that the shooter’s motive turns out to be merely personal — that Tiller performed an abortion that killed his child, or that Tiller destroyed the man’s family by giving his teenaged daughter an abortion, or something like that.
And I *really* hope it wasn’t some kind of crazed “confessional” Lutheran who deliberately targeted Tiller at his church in order to make a statement about their willingness to welcome him.
Lars @ #5,
Isn’t baby-killing a matter for the earthly kingdom to deal with? Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad many Christians are taking up this cause, but there’s nothing specifically Christian about protecting children.
Mark,
“Being an ELCA pastor, I have known colleagues who will not speak the Truth, at risk of losing a congregant. Or risking a hard discussion that might lead to repentance.”
I suppose the same question can be asked of pastors who continue to be members in the ELCA.
Don’t you think it may be quite confusing when we know of pastors who remain in the ELCA (at the risk of losing retirement, or…?) and by their remaining cause other Lutherans to wonder if a particular congregation really believes what the apostate leaders of that church body espouse, no? Wouldn’t it be a more powerful, honest witness for orthodox pastors and congregations to speak the truth to its leadership by leaving the ELCA?
I think the biggest tradgedy here is that Reformation Lutheran Church was helping Tiller pretend to be a Christian. The guy remained a hitman for babies until the end; there’s no ambiguity there. I certainly hope they repent of keeping the man as far from salvation as humanly possible.
I understand why the pro-life movement is falling all over itself condemning this murder. Will public perception of the movement be damaged? Probably. This will certainly make it easier to suppress our political action. However, I think we need to put this event in perspective. We have acheived virtually nothing by political action anyways. At this point in history, the Supreme Court is more likely to cease to exist than to repeal Roe v. Wade, and a federal law against abortion is unlikely to precede the demise of the federal government.
Our real gains have been in raising people to realize that abortion is wrong–the people who will build the next civilization. This murder really isn’t going to make that task more difficult. He lived by the sword and died by the sword–hardly cause for questioning the message.
I think it’s worth considering the possibility that the pro-life movement’s overreaction to Tiller’s murder may do more damage than the event itself because we are so eagerly participating in the pro-abortion backlash. We are helping them trump up importance of a murder we *want* people to see as insignificant.
Lars Walker
There certainly is a two kingdoms issue here. If you read some of the stories about how justice was perverted in the state of Kansas and by Kathleen Sibelius, the governor, when Tiller came up up on trial for abortion clinic rules violations, you’ll see that the earthly kingdom failed to convict Tiller for blatant violations in his killing center under very questionable circumstances. If real justice had prevailed, he’d have lost his license and might yet be alive today.
Maybe when the earthly kingdoms failed, God raised up someone to carry out Plan B.
Mark, Is the Rev. C J Conner (that I referenced in #6) also an ELCA pastor?
Seeing this on the news last night sent me into a depression. I never held any respect for Tiller, or the so-called Lutheran Church that harbored him. I remember hearing somewhere that when he was excommunicated he built that church.
I can’t help but to see Satan behind the whole thing. Twisting a man’s mind to think that by killing Tiller he would win some victory for the pro-life movement. Then having the man murdered in a Church (Christian sanctuary or no, that is just wrong on too many levels.)But to top it off the name Luther, and Lutheran Churches have been besmirched in the public media all day as the camera vans park in front of a sign that says Lutheran and talk about how this church harbored this man, who made a living out of murder. Well sell your soul to Satan, and he is sure to come and get it at some point.
CRB @#10: You incorrectly presuppose that I and many other ELCA pastors have not asked the question about staying. Elijah and the 7,000 did not flee Israel. And I know that I am no Elijah. And yet like a Elijah, I too want to hold up in a cave.
But maybe we should all leave. You are right: It would be a statement. But does a shepherd flee when the wolves attack? You presuppose that a shepherd, preaching and teaching the Scriptures, has not already lost congregants and offerings because he has so preached and taught. No one is confused in my congregation on my stand. Neither are the other pastors in this college town.
You presuppose that I and other pastors stay for the pension. “Fasting is a good idea on a full stomach” When losing goods, fame, child and spouse becomes not merely theoretical, but actual, then yes, I pause.
Now I know the time is probably at hand, because my congregation seems to want as one key member said, “I’d rather keep my head in the sand”, that I must leave. And you presuppose that I have not made moves to do so. You probably do not know that your posting opens a big can of worms for many pastors. Please pray for us.
Mark,
I’m sorry if my post gave the impression of presupposing anything. I guess I could have worded it better. All I was trying to do is get some clarification as I remain confused about why orthodox pastors and congregations in the ELCA remain there. Couldn’t you all just go independent
and then at some future date all form into an orthodox Lutheran church body? I have prayed for you as you fight the good fight. Again, please forgive me for not being more clear in what I was trying to find out. May the Lord of the church give you grace to follow His will.
Manxman,
Do you really believe God’s cause was served by this? Do you think that this man murdering an abortionist has done anything to stop the senseless murder of children all over this country? No, it is a major blow to a movement that seeks to stop this senseless murder. It was not God who did this. This is the devil’s work. Satan is laughing.
Yet I trust God will work everything for good for those who love him.
CRB: apology accepted and I am sorry if my response only clouded the reasons as to why I and others stay. It is the sense of deserting our post is why we stay. And as far as going independant and forming an orthodox Lutheran church in the future: I wince at the formation of yet another Lutheran church body, eps. when the LCMS is around the corner. But that is fraught with problems for many, e.g. ordination of women. And I thank you for your prayer and benediction and say, And also with you.
Here is a good response, citing other good responses, from Rob Shearer:
http://redhatrob.com/2009/05/gravely-wicked/
It reminds us of Luther’s crucial Two-Kingdoms point that only rightful civil authorities (the police, the military, the legal system) are authorized to use “the sword” to punish evildoers. We private Christian citizens are not.
I’m glad many Christians are taking up this cause, but there’s nothing specifically Christian about protecting children.
This is not true. Christians are commanded to value human, God given life. Historically, Christians over time largely ended the pagan practices of abortion, the exposing of unwanted children, and slavery.
The condoning of abortion through the ruse of “pro-choice” is another sign that the radical liberals are essentially pagans.
As to the fool who killed the abortionist, Tiller, it matters little whatever his faith turns out to be. Every church has its share of nut-cases.
Since it is Christian to value life and protect children why don’t you vote for health care and education for all post natal children?
Bror Erickson
There are many ways God’s cause could be advanced by Tiller’s death, and I think the Bible shows that God used violence to stop evil men when He saw fit. At the very least I know God loved Tiller’s past victims and his potential victims, and in bringing about an end to Tiller there is an element of justice and mercy, no matter what means is used.
The soul-searching that is going on within the ELCA may advance God’s cause in the Church, and the focus on the corrupt American legal system that enabled Tiller to violate abortion clinic standards and yet continue to pracdtice may lead to stricter regulation of the abortion killing centers.
Look at the bigger picture.
Elizabeth,
Don’t presume to know how any of us here vote.
And I don’t think anyone here wants to deny health care to Children or anyone for that matter, but they may have serious druthers as to whether making that the responsibility of the government is a wise thing.
As for education? If I thought the public schools were capable of delivering an education any more I might be more willing to support the socialist teachers union. But then again if it wasn’t for them and the failure of the school system I would not have quit school half way through my Junior year. But yes, lets continue to fund a program that forces us to put our children in harms way day in and day out, by making them do “class projects” with drug dealers and users while teaching them that they are as worthless as they cow they had for lunch, and mushes their brains in the process.
Elizabeth,
Don’t presume to know how any of us here vote.
And I don’t think anyone here wants to deny health care to Children or anyone for that matter, but they may have serious druthers as to whether making that the responsibility of the government is a wise thing.
As for education? If I thought the public schools were capable of delivering an education any more I might be more willing to support the socialist teachers union. But then again if it wasn’t for them and the failure of the school system I would not have quit school half way through my Junior year. But yes, lets continue to fund a program that forces us to put our children in harms way day in and day out, by making them do “class projects” with drug dealers and users while teaching them that they are as worthless as they cow they had for lunch, and mushes their brains in the process. Because after all that is valuing life.
Manxman (@23), you said “in bringing about an end to [this person] there is an element of justice and mercy, no matter what means is used.”
That is the language of abortionists, as well. How interesting that you would co-opt it in praising, however slightly, this murder.
Peter Leavitt @ 21 wrote:
“This is not true. Christians are commanded to value human, God given life. Historically, Christians over time largely ended the pagan practices of abortion, the exposing of unwanted children, and slavery.”
But non-Christians have received the same command–it’s written on their hearts. It is a matter of civil righteousness to care for rather than murder one’s offspring. Even pagans ought to know better.
Christians have historically been at the forefront of rejecting such practices because Christians have the potential to be better citizens than pagans. However, not murdering children is part of being a good citizen rather than something specifically Christian.
Elizabeth @ 22,
Ideally, a Christian ought to be more concerned with actually educating and caring for children than they are with filling out a piece of paper instructing somebody else to do their job for them.
Maxman – striking me dead would also have an element of justice and mercy too. After all “the wages of sin is death.” Romans 6:23. Surely, I have sinned and sin daily. Yet, pursuant to the New Covenant instituted by Christ’s death on the Cross, God’s judgment upon me for my sins will be handed down by Christ on Judgment Day not by a misguided man with a gun. According to God’s righteous judgment my sins are no less worthy of death than Tillers. James 2:10 (“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”) My only hope is in Grace through Faith.
Elizabeth – there are a lot of ways to answer your question. Some pro-life people do just what you ask. Others fund it outside of the realm of the Gov’t. Your question seems to be the same strawman we hear all the time. But just open your phone book or run a google search and you will find many Christian organizations that provide for the physical needs of young mothers and their children both pre and post birth. These issues are also why we fight to preserve the family structure. A loving family is a child’s best chance at a decent earthly life.
My question to you is: even if we did utterly fail to provide adequate healthcare and education for children, would that justify killing them? Are we to let the perfect get in the way of the good?
Our newspaper, in every reference to Tiller, named him a doctor or a physician, never an abortionist. In fact, whenever our newspaper reports on abortionists, they never use the word.
Mark,
I for one will be praying for ELCA pastors.
Do you know about LCMC headquartered in Canton, Mi? http://www.lcmc.net.
Dr. Paul Ulring of Upper Arlington in Columbus is a member.
Or the LCMS nongeographical synod? Bishop David Stechholz in Livonia, Mi. is President.
Yes, leaving ELCA would be hard. My husband and I left in 1979.
On the topic of female ordination, I wonder if female ELCA ministers generally support the social statements; hence, they would be less likely to leave.
“We are not contending with flesh or blood but with the powers and principalities of this present darkness.” Eph. 6:12.
Ministry is a warrior profession.
In an age where harassment of Christians and the values they hold dear seem to be in vogue and when the Homeland Security Department can publically and unapologetically state that those who are prolife are potential domestic terrorists, Tiller’s demise is likely to have farther reaching implications than just the death of one abortionist. While it’s true that most prolife groups wisely condemned the killing rather quickly, what will follow for those of us who fight for the unborn is anyone’s guess. This is bad all the way around.
I, too, completely agree with Dr. Veith in his condemnation of and sorrow over this evil killing. God does not need the hand of man to execute his judgment. If it were God’s timing for Dr. Tiller to pass to his eternal destiny, He would have caused his death. We do what we can, within the bounds of the moral and life-affirming choices available to us, to protect the lives of the precious unborn, and leave the rest to God.
tODD / Joe
You trivialize something the Lord cares deeply about – the shedding of innocent blood. If people in the Church were as indignant over what Tiller was doing in his “clinics” as you are about how he met his end, maybe the body count in America’s abortuaries wouldn’t exceed American losses in war. I think your sympathies as swewed by false piety.
Manxman (@32), how humorous that, in decrying all murder (against your sometime defense of murder in cold blood) that I would be the one accused by you of trivializing murder.
Oh, but Tiller was a bad person, so it’s okay. God always wants us to take the law into our own hands and murder people when they’ve sinned. Oh, what’s that, only some sins are worthy of vigilantism? Well, as long as you’ve got Biblical support for that argument, I guess it’s okay to support murder. Oh, what’s that? …
I am indignant over what Tiller was doing, and I can’t think of a lot of “people in the Church” who don’t share that opinion.
But this battle isn’t going to be won by employing moral relativism, as you’re doing. That, again, is the tool that the abortionists use. Good luck using that against them and winning.
(In case it wasn’t clear, the second paragraph, in my comment above, should be wrapped in [sarcasm] tags.)
Elizabeth: Since it is Christian to value life and protect children why don’t you vote for health care and education for all post natal children?
Health care and education are best provided by private entities. Our massively bureaucratic public education system is a joke, as is Medicare and Medicaid. If Obama gets his way, the next step will be an essentially socialistic system for everyone, except those well off enough to pay privately for first-class medicine.
Sorry to take this issue off topic.
Help me, Lord! tODD is making sense! And BROR Erickson agrees with him! These are indeed the last days.
Elizabeth: Since it is Christian to value life and protect children why don’t you vote for health care and education for all post natal children?
Public entities largely protect bureaucratic educators and “health” care workers. Excellent private entities, through competition, however imperfect, do a far better job of protecting the interests of children.
Most government entities have no incentive to serve the best interests of children or anyone else, notwithstanding their gooey rhetoric.
to Rose @ #29: Yes, I am familiar with LCMC and the English District. When it comes to LCMC and other like groups, all well-meaning, it seems that they are constructing, for lack of a better phrase, a shadow church. Most of the female ministers in my experience generally support the social statements. I know others, though, in the Society of the Holy Trinity, who adamently do not. And thank-you for your support and care in your posting.
For comparison, check out Obama Ignores Soldier’s Murder at Recruiting Center; Reacted Quickly to Abortionist’s Killing
The name, picture, religious association, and criminal background of Tiller’s (suspected) murderer were quickly exposed by the media, who, along with our TOTUS User-in-Chief, appears essentially mum about the murder (or in clymerese, death from a shooting incident’) of a young soldier, William Long, at a Little Rock Army recruiting center or similar details about his captured murderer.
One report claims the suspect is facing 15 counts of engaging in a terrorist act, but don’t hold your breath looking for MSM headlines identifying the suspect as a “terrorist.”
Carl (@38), “The media … appears essentially mum about the murder … of a young soldier, William Long, at a Little Rock Army recruiting center.”
Whoops, it’s the lead article at CNN.com right now, including mention of the “15 counts of engaging in a terrorist act”. Never mind the 572 news articles (and counting) that Google News can find right now. That’s probably not enough for you, though, is it? It never is.
For whatever reason (tinfoil-hat-wearers can and will chalk it up to conspiracy, naturally), the recruiting center shooting/murder only became a big story late Monday. Whereas the Tiller murder was big news on a (typically news-starved) early Sunday. And I would expect that a story’s magnitude would scale with the fame (or infamy) of the person involved — frankly, Tiller was far more widely known than William Long.
Not that I expect any such calculus to be used by people just looking for any reason to whine about Obama and/or the media.
Steve in Toronto: You’re quite silent. Still wondering why the LCMS/LCC fences the Lord’s Altar?
CL
An Arkansas TV station has now identified the suspect as Abulhakin Muhammad.
No religious background reported yet, but I’ll take a shot (so to speak) and rule out “Amish”.
tODD – I am glad to see you have finally come to your sense and become a reasonable man. Oh how do I know, well becuase I agree with everthing you have posted in this thread. Thus, …
Carl (@41), a USA Today article on the recruitment center shooting leads off by mentioning his religious background: “A Muslim convert who said he was opposed to the U.S. military shot two soldiers outside an Arkansas recruiting station, killing one of the soldiers, police said Monday.”
I found that mention in a few seconds. Perhaps your problem is that you’re not very good at using the Internet to easily find the information you accuse people of conspiratorially hiding?
Not that this has anything to do with Tiller’s murder, but why let that get in the way of a good anti-media rant?
“When it comes to LCMC and other like groups, all well-meaning, it seems that they are constructing, for lack of a better phrase, a shadow church.”
Pr. Mark, you should read the confessions. The church exists where the word is properly preached and the sacraments rightly administered. The ELCA is not a church under the Lutheran Confessional definition, as the word is not properly preached when unrepentant abortionists are given forgiveness.
If, during the World War II holocaust, a young citizen had walked into a concentration camp and lopped off Hitler’s right hand man, who had been responsible for the gassing of thousands of Jews, would we have been aghast at the incident?
I’m just asking.
Manxman,
I am concerned about the Plan B statement that maybe if the earthly kingdom fails, then God raises someone up. This is subjectivism in the purest since how is one to confirm if God is calling them? I only can imagine how many fanatics would think this for themselves (see the events of today in Arkansas). While I hate what Tiller did, it is not for us as individuals to punish him according to how we see fit. Instead, God works through the State to punish evil. God uses individuals through their vocations in the kingdom of the left to serve our neighbor and love our enemy not to murder them at our whim.
Yes, Tiller seemed to deserve some type of punishment for his external sins, but it isn’t up to us to act arbitrarily as God’s avenger. This is opposite of how God rules that is with order not chaos. If everyone acted on their own whims (like the abortionists) their would be innocent bloodshed .
Booklover,
Your point is a very good one. I would say no, but that is in hindsight. However, God would have us resist evil not with evil but good. This has been at issue within Lutheranism from quite some time. The Fabricated Luther by Uwe Siemon-Netto touches on this dilemma. He examines Luther’s view on resistance along with Bonhoeffer and Goerdeler. It ultimately boils down to this should one commit evil to reduce a greater evil? The key is that no matter what, it is wrong and evil to murder no matter what the ends are. Thus, we should repent and cling to Christ for forgiveness.
There are many on this site who are rushing to judgement. As I understand, the provision of a late term abortion is legal. We also do not know the stories behind these abortions; the threat to a woman’s life or the burden taken on by the whole family with the birth of a severely retarded child.
Ultimately it has to be the woman’s decision; let her make her own peace with God and let those who are without sin ………..
Booklover (@45), the question isn’t so much “would we have been aghast”, but rather: is it wrong to take life (and law) into our own hands and murder for reasons we (men) consider just? Sadly, there are many cases in which something is wrong, but even many Christians are not aghast, so that alone is not a sufficient question.
And if it’s always right to use our own violence and power to stop a supposedly worse power from using violence, then why did Jesus chastise Peter for using his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane?
Of course, where does this logic of moral relativism end? If you can agree (and I hope you do) that all men are sinful, then wouldn’t any vigilante by justified in deciding that the world would be better off — that is, less sinful — with the murder of any sinful person, yourself included?
Of course, moral relativism never goes that far. For some reason, it’s only ever about repaying murder for murder, not just any sin that average people — like you and me — commit. It’s always easier to condemn the murderer to be murdered, I guess.
But Jesus shows us a more excellent way to deal with sin, and thankfully, it doesn’t involve endless cycles of bloody revenge.
John (@47), it’s not clear how you’ve judged — and yes, you’re doing it, too — that “many” here are “rushing to judgment”, as if there hasn’t been a lot of thought put into this subject beforehand.
“The provision of a late term abortion is legal.” I’m actually ignorant on this point, but assuming you’re correct, this would have no bearing on the morality of the act, except that Tiller could not be accused of sinning by breaking a law, I guess.
“We also do not know the stories behind these abortions.” That is true, and it’s possible that some of the abortions Tiller performed were not completely morally reprehensible. You mentioned “the threat to a woman’s life”, and my understanding is that this is a consideration in some pregnancies (though rarely). However, while I’m not an expert on the matter, I’ve never heard of this necessitating a late-term abortion, the kind for which Tiller was (in)famous. At the point at which he was performing abortions, the baby could have been delivered by C-section and survived just fine.
Of course, you also mentioned “the burden taken on by the whole family with the birth of a severely retarded child,” which is not an argument about life, but rather about convenience. Yes, having such a child could be very difficult, but if it’s only difficulty that we’re considering, what parent could not be justified in killing their children when they, inevitably, prove to be a difficult burden? Not to mention that, should the family decide they could not raise the child themselves, there is still the option of giving birth to the child and giving it up for adoption.
“Ultimately it has to be the woman’s decision; let her make her own peace with God and let those who are without sin …” Yes, well, by that same logic, we could absolve Tiller’s murderer, couldn’t we? It was his decision to murder Tiller, let’s let him make his own peace with God, and those who are without sin … Right?
Mark,
Thanks for your reply.
C J Conner of Christian Newswire is not an ELCA pastor per Pastor Ulring.
Please consider that Luther may have been in a ’shadow church’ for awhile until he was certain of the way forward.
Grace and Peace,
Rose
This was an act of infamy, a disgusting and heinous assault on the imago dei.
I leave the Onion with the last word:
“HUNTSVILLE, AL–Jesus Christ, son of God and noted pro-life activist, killed two and critically wounded seven others when He opened fire in the waiting room of a Huntsville abortion clinic Tuesday.”
http://bit.ly/KVrgF
Todd 49
As the murder of Dr Tiller is recognised by the state as a crime then the state will determine the innocence or guilt of the accused. It is not up to me or you to grant absolution Todd. And it’s possible he may make his own peace wih God.
As I understand it, 3rd term abortion is legal and therefore it is rather inflammatory to describe Dr Tiller as ‘a hitman for babies’.
You frame the argument about the abortion of a severely deformed child as a matter of ‘convenience’. I see the issue a matter of ‘quality of life’; where the doctor and the parents rather than the church or state, are more able to make an informed decision.
You concede that it is possible that some of the abortions performed by Dr Tiller may not be morally reprehensible. You seem to be suggesting that under some circumstances women and health professional can make morally sound decisions on abortion — a step forward in the debate?
John (@52), you’ve rather missed my point (@49). I was condemning your laissez-faire attitude towards murder in the statement “it has to be the woman’s decision; let her make her own peace with God”. All you seem to have to offer in this discussion is that the state considers some forms of murder to be legal, and others illegal. Thanks, I understand that.
That has no impact whatsoever on whether it’s moral. Try this on: “It has to be the man’s decision if he’s going to cheat on his wife; let him make his own peace with God.” Technically true — that is the man’s decision to make — but it would still be wrong for the man to do so.
I’m not sure you understand that “legal” does not mean “moral” — why else would you think abortion’s legality makes a certain description “inflammatory”? You may not like the description, and it may, in fact, be inflammatory, but it fits (or not) entirely regardless of whether the act being described is legal.
So tell me about the “quality of life” of an aborted baby. Is it good? I would think the whole “being killed in the uterus” thing would have an impact on its life’s quality, but apparently you think it enhances it. Do tell.
Predictably, the Des Moines Register this morning featured an endorsement of the murder by a local pro-life activist right alongside a “news story” praising Obama’s nationalization of General Motors.
Todd 55
Todd, this is an almost all male site and and for some reason women are unwilling or reluctant to engage in the conversation. Maybe they are intimidated by the anger or the sheer bloody maleness of it all. There is certainly not much sympathy for women who find themselves for whatever reason in a family planning clinic.
I thought there was a glimmer of hope when you said that it was possible that some of the abortions Tiller performed were not completely morally reprehensible. But no, the moral compass is fixed. We cannot digress into nuance, complexity and moral ambiguity.
As a person that was born with several birth defects, the phrase “quality of life” truly does scare me, that idea that a person can judge that some lives are lesser in value and quality than other. I do have sympathy and would not lay all the blame on a pregnant woman that must consider such an agonizing decision, but to do it for a reason like “quality of life” is no excuse…
John (@57), it’s not clear where you’re going with the whole mostly-men-here argument. My wife and I frequently discuss the topics and comments on this site, but she, for her reasons, chooses not to comment herself. She does want you to know, however, that she’s not “intimidated” by the “maleness of it all” — which could be, you know, a sexist comment itself.
Anyhow, I agree that there hasn’t been much said in “sympathy for women who find themselves for whatever reason in a family planning clinic”, but then, the discussion hasn’t really centered around that topic, either. Do those women deserve our sympathy and, moreover, our help? Yes. Does that absolve them of any choices they may make? No.
Consider a parallel situation: I also am sympathetic to the homeless, jobless, and poor, who may find themselves considering stealing in order to make ends meet. They need help, too. That does not mean that it’s okay for them to steal, and there is no need to mince words on the matter, even if the situation is sad.
So are there pregnant women who need help? Yes. Does the rhetoric opposed to abortion sometimes/often strike a more judgmental/self-righteous tone than is helpful for these people? Yes. But again, from what I can tell here, we’re not talking with such women here. We’re people talking, however abstractly, about a very real moral issue. Would I change my tone if I were talking to a woman in such a situation? Yes. Would I change my stance? No. That’s not how morals work.
It’s not clear why you find “moral ambiguity” to be a good of itself. Why is it wrong for me to say that murder is wrong? Does every issue have nuance, or are there any absolutes?
The “glimmer of hope” to which you allude was my concession that potentially there are (rare) circumstances in which a pregnancy can be judged to be threatening to the mother’s life (and therefore possibly the baby’s, as well), in which an abortion could be considered so as to preserve at least one life. In the overwhelming majority of abortions, however, there is no thought of saving lives, only the “quality of life” of the mother, and notably not the baby. But that’s apparently not enough for you — you want me to concede more. Based on what?
By the way, while I do not believe that one’s personal experiences add more legitimacy to one’s beliefs, they do add a unique perspective. In that light, you may want to know that I am the father of an infant with a birth defect, whom I (and my wife) love dearly. My son’s life is, as BW notes (@58) of no less value or quality than mine.