Now I know something of what I was looking for: documentary evidence that Barack Obama at least WAS a hard-left radical. Not just in his college days but when he ran for the state Senate in Illinois. Thomas Lifson summarizes the case in Archives prove Obama was a New Party member:
Another piece in the puzzle of Barack Obama has been revealed, greatly strengthening the picture of a man groomed by an older generation of radical leftists for insertion into the American political process, trading on good looks, brains, educational pedigree, and the desire of the vast majority of the voting public to right the historical racial wrongs of the land.
The New Party was a radical left organization, established in 1992, to amalgamate far left groups and push the United States into socialism by forcing the Democratic Party to the left. It was an attempt to regroup the forces on the left in a new strategy to take power, burrowing from within. The party only lasted until 1998, when its strategy of “fusion” failed to withstand a Supreme Court ruling. But dissolving the party didn’t stop the membership, including Barack Obama, from continuing to move the Democrats leftward with spectacular success.
Erick Erickson, editor of RedState, explained fusion in a Human Events article:
Fusion is a pretty simple concept. A candidate could run as both a Democrat and a New Party member to signal the candidate was, in fact, a left-leaning candidate, or at least not a center-left DLC type candidate. If the candidate — let’s call him Barack Obama — received only 500 votes in the Democratic Party against another candidate who received 1000 votes, Obama would clearly not be the nominee. But, if Obama also received 600 votes from the New Party, Obama’s New Party votes and Democratic votes would be fused. He would be the Democratic nominee with 1100 votes.
The fusion idea set off a number of third parties, but the New Party was probably the most successful. A March 22, 1998 In These Times article by John Nichols showed just how successful. “After six years, the party has built what is arguably the most sophisticated left-leaning political operation the country has seen since the decline of the Farmer-Labor, Progressive and Non-Partisan League groupings of the early part of the century …. In 1996, it helped Chicago’s Danny Davis, a New Party member, win a Democratic congressional primary, thereby assuring his election in the majority-black district …. The threat of losing New Party support, or of the New Party running its own candidates against conservative Democrats, would begin a process of forcing the political process to the left, [Joel] Rogers argued.”
Fusion, fortunately for the country, died in 1997. William Rehnquist, writing for a 6-3 Supreme Court, found the concept was not a protected constitutional right. It was two years too late to stop Obama.
J. Brown of Politically Drunk on Power has dug up multiple documentary sources (with hyperlinks) proving that Barack Obama was a member of the New Party, despite alleged attempts to cover up his tracks by scrubbing evidence. He or she deserves tremendous praise for doing this detective work.
So the New Party was precisely an attempt to run hard-left candidates under the auspices of the Democratic Party? OK, we know that Obama WAS a far-left radical. Is he still?
I can’t believe that some of you don’t care about this, that you think we should concentrate on “issues” and that a candidate’s political ideology doesn’t matter!
79 comments ↓
Of course it matters!
But will it be enough to sway the electorate?
Doubtful, as we’ve become a nation focused on our navels and not on the “greater good of the country.”
We’ve forgotten how to care for our neighbors, because the government will do it. We’ve become jaded to the officials we elect because we’ve been disappointed so often.
Do not fret Provost Veith, some who protest, as in the Obama/Ayers entry, that we stick to the issues and not “McCain talking points” fail to point out that on their own blog from July 2008 at
http://blog.toddstadler.com/2008/7
they say “The point (maybe?): what I wanted was not some fawning “Obama=Hope” poster, but rather an image critical of something, one more in line with my sentiments.And, in keeping with the “cheap potshot” mentality, I also decided to make an obvious riff on Fairey’s “Hope” poster by taking a news photo, tracing it in Illustrator, and thinking of one word to describe the person in the poster. Thus, my John McCain “fear” poster (see what I did there — it’s in contrast to “hope”, right, and … I know. It’s dumb).I don’t know if Obama really embodies the idea of hope, but I do think that McCain is campaigning pretty heavily on fear — fear of terrorists, fear of Iran, fear that Obama may not be experienced enough, fear of free kittens, and so on. Are you scared? John McCain will be there for you!….
I’ll admit, it’s not difficult to find a photo of McCain that looks like he’s modeling for the concept of fear. In addition, playing with Fairey’s palette with bright red patches really plays up the anger in McCain’s glare.”
Of course, when prompted by a commenter on t-shirts,
adds “[Update] Okay, in light of the comments about t-shirts below, I have added the design to my Cafepress store, so you can buy a shirt with the “fear” image if you want. I think it looks particularly nice in black. Have fun.”
In other words, take some protestations about what is an issue and what is not with some grain of salt.
Okay, you have persuaded me that Obama is not the right choice; I won’t vote for him.
My problem is that I am equally unhappy with McCain-Palin, and I won’t vote for them, either. I don’t see any way that the nation will come out with a good solution after this election.
Bob Barr!!! Libertarian Party
Chuck Baldwin!!! Constitution Party
Muslim Imam Louis Farrakhan has just declared Obama to be the Mahdi.
Where is Chinese Gordon when you need him?
Who’s “Chinese Gordon”?
This information is inconsequential, even if true. It’s not like Obama was sympathetic to a seccessionist party, like, say, Palin.
Even so, perhaps an injection from the radical left is what we need right now. The radical right certainly has taken this country to new depths of misery.
Go Obama/Biden!
CRB,
Take the afternoon off as a patriotic duty. then go rent Khartoum and watch all four hours of it. At the end you will know who Chinese Gordon is.
I think McCain/Palin, the RNC, and conservative-leaning 527’s should spend the last 25 days highlighting “Pelosi/Reid/Obama — is this the team you want to lead the country for the next two years”? Seriously, in a time of national crisis, knowing that Congress will already securely be in Democratic hands for the next two years at least, doesn’t it make sense to keep one branch in the other party’s control? To have bi-partisanship, you need to share power. Putting all of the power in the hands of the far left does not seem like a wise move.
Ross Douthat, in “The Atlantic” today, channels my thoughts above:
“The convergence of an economic crisis and complete Democratic control of Washington should alarm even those conservatives eager to wash their hands of the GOP. The best reason for even the most disaffected right-winger to root for a McCain victory is simple: To the extent that much of the progressive agenda is a program in search of a crisis to justify its implementation, an election that delivers a liberal candidate who’s adored by the media to the White House, gives him huge majorities in both houses of Congress, and presents him with a worldwide state of emergency in which to govern, has the potential to be not just another loss for conservatives, but a once-in-a-generation defeat.”
Fine, maybe he is a radical. But why can McCain/Palin not admonish their followers who chant/yell - He’s a terrorist/Kill him/Of with his head?
If they do not seriously confront that radicalism in their own ranks/support, they are nothing but rabble rousing radicals themselves, and will be playing the Robespierre to the out of control crowds.
Since Communism is so chic in many parts of America now, wouldn’t the fact that Obama is a Commie simply be resume’ enhancement?
It’s interesting that in America there is no more socialistic culture than the US military. Everyone in it lives off the hapless taxpayer.
#8 Bror,
You mean I don’t have to wait til Mon, Columbas Day?!
Cool!
Maybe I’ll rent it from Netflix. Thanks!
NavyMom - do you even know what communism is? What might be in vogue is “Social Democracy”, which is substantially different.
My pleads for folks to be aware of the definitions of the terms they use seem to be continually falling on deaf ears. Even using the definitions on wikipedia would be a substantial improvement.
Otherwise we are descending into rabble rousing….
Bror,
Just order Khartoum and noticed, “Olivier portrays a Muslim. *That* should be interesting!!
Scylding @11, you’re right.
I’m particularly concerned that McCain/Palin are stoking anger - not at our economy, for example - but at Obama personally. God help us if people go violent.
Obama is a master at sounding cool and moderate, though he is a radical leftist. He will most probably win due partly to the naivete of many Americans who fall for leftist pap and the idiot conservatives who can’t bring themselves to vote for McCain. The American people usually get the leaders that they deserve.
Only in modern, largely secular America would a fraud of a candidate with a totallly undistinguished record of accomplishment become president.
Peter, I can’t tell from your last paragraph whether you’re referring to McCain or Palin.
#17 J, you wrote:
“I’m particularly concerned that McCain/Palin are stoking anger - not at our economy, for example - but at Obama personally. God help us if people go violent.”
I think we need to be busy in prayer, perhaps spending
more time on our knees than at the keyboard, myself included!!
CRB, indeed. Though one can pray while at one’s keyboard. Moreover, we need to denounce publicly McCain/Palin’s descent into the dark side.
God help us to not repeat America’s past of assassination and rioting.
J,
Well it seems to me that no matter who wins, there’s going to be some sort of ramifications approaching violence, but I hope and pray that would not come about.
we need to denounce publicly McCain/Palin’s descent into the dark side.
Not really, Sen. McCain and Gov. Palin are finally calling attention to Obama’s very real association with a radical founder of the Weathermen terrorists who were involved in activities that killed policemen and attempted a radical revolution. Ayers has continued to defend his nefarious activity in the sixties. Obama was close to Ayers politically and as Chairman of the organization that Ayers headed to distribute about $500 millions of Annenberg Foundation funds.
Had McCain or Palin been associated with such characters as Ayers, Wright, and Rezco, they would have been excoriated and shoved aside politically by the liberal media.
It’s actually time for McCain and Palin to tale the gloves off and expose Obama for the ill accomplished fraud that he is.
Peter - so you don’t want to halt the calls of “Off with his head” / “Kill him” etc???
Sam #13,
Being payed by the tax payer to do an honest job is not socialism. I resent that statement having formerly served our country, and many others resent that kind of reasoning. It is trite and insulting. These men and women sign their lives away for that paycheck, so that you can go on being an ignorant fool.
CRB,
You won’t be dissapointed. It is a long movie, but it gives you a great history lesson. Great movie all the way around.
I am once again shamed to be more in favor of McCain than Obama when others on “my” side say stuff like Peter just did.
You’re EXCUSING them?!? I still hold that the history of Obama and the potential of what he will promote to be worse than McCain/Palin, but that doesn’t EXCUSE McCain and Palin. The ties Obama seems to have ought to be brought to light, but NOT with shouts of “Kill him!”
Actually, for quite a while now I’ve decided to go with Barr and not McCain, so my “support” of McCain compared to Obama is similar to:
“The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy. No more. No less.” - The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
Bror, don’t let the mere mention of ’socialism’ drive you nuts. I too served honorably in the military (USMC), and my dad was a career USAF man. Sure, my dad worked for and deserved a govt pay check, but he did not need the US taxpayer to also pay for such things as his housing, health and dental care, and base exchange and commisary privileges.
I live in a western state among many military retirees, some of whom have never received anything but a govt paycheck and benefits. Yet they regularly curse “socialism.” Socialism = other people getting a govt benefit.
This is slightly off point, but it reminds me of the saying that a Republican will complain about the cost of a govt program only when that program benefits the poor. There’s nary a peep from these fiscal conservatives about the bloated defense budget. I’m not saying that describes you. It just came to mind.
Webmonk @ 27:
McCain and Palin aren’t shouting “kill him!”. They are not responsible for the indiscretions of their supporters any more than are Obama and Biden for the indiscretions of their supporters. Are you saying that candidates for office should not ever point out issues related to the character of an opponent, because it might cause an unstable supporter to lose it? Even if the media refuses to do its job?
Sam @ 28: Bror is right. Socialism is the redistribution of wealth based on perceived need and perceptions of “fairness”. Those who serve in the military deserve, on merit, every last dime and benefit they receive. Socialism has nothing to do with it. Federal employees similarly earn what they get (though we might quibble that many are over-compensated, but that is a separate issue). Not socialism.
so you don’t want to halt the calls of “Off with his head” / “Kill him” etc???
This is straw man stuff. No serious analyst is making such effusions. Rather, we are saying that Obama is clearly a radical leftist who has associated with the terrorist, Ayers, and , Wright, the purveyor of a doctrine that casts Jesus Christ as a “black messiah” and blacks as “the chosen people”.
If Obama or Palin had such malign associations, they would long ago have been made toast by the liberal media.
One as a naive isolationist could regard Obama as the “enemy of my enemy”, McCain, though in taking part in the election of a radical leftis, who most probably wiil make Carter look like a tough statesman, one could, also, be shooting himself in the foot. Wait ’till you see what the Supreme court looks like after an Obama presidency.
Don @29, stop being coy.
Shouting “kill him!” hardly qualifies as an indiscretion, as you put it. It’s a felony, which is why the Secret Service is investigating.
McCain/Palin can point out what they deem flaws in anyone’s character. But all reasonable people understand that they can’t turn their campaign rallies into hatefests, where people feel comfortable enough to yell, “kill him!” and “terrorist!” and “traitor!”
They need to put a stop to it now. This is going on in front of them. It’s not some nut on the internet somewhere writing hateful words. McCain/Palin know this is going on, and apparently want it to continue.
Peter - rabble rousing against a leftist government during economic trying times is EXACTLY how a certain house painter from Munich came to prominence. I sincerely hope Palin & McCain condemns this stuff soon. Will you do so?
Obama’s ties are cause for concern. Just as it it’s cause for concern that the NEO-conservatives and their http://www.newamericancentury.org/ had a chance to attempt their Pax Americana (their words, not mine)throughout the world during the last administration. Bush has done plenty to give the government more power, increase debt, and take away rights for our own good.
Obama’s colloborative approach to issues may very well be a front for his leftist agenda. I’m not really keen on either party having control of the congress and the presidency. Obama may use this crisis to justify their far left politics, just as Bush (moreso Cheney and Rumsfeld) used 9/11 to justify their far right politics. I think people are scared of more of the same. I am, and I’m a registered Republican. Whether Obama will a) truly be different or b) will be a good kind of change are questionable. At least Christians would be on their guard with Obama, rather than giving always defending the president like so many did with Bush.
And the world would probably like us again. People I talked to in NZ 5 years ago liked Clinton, didn’t like Bush. Odds are they’ll like Obama if elected.
Don, there’s a difference between the military and civilian govt work. A soldier gets it all - pay, housing, health care, clothing allowance, food. A civilian, by and large, gets only a paycheck. Sure, the govt pays a part of a civilian employee’s health insurance, as would a private company, but the civilian pays for everything else with that paycheck, just as someone who works for a private company. Moreover, the military has its own bases (socialist towns) and an airline, etc.
When I said the military was socialist, I was not insulting anyone. It’s a fact, in this country and presumably in other countries. Our govt wants people to volunteer to serve in the senseless wars it conducts, so it rewards them with a life lived fully at govt expense.
Sam @ 35: Just because a soldier “gets it all” doesn’t make it socialism. A soldier “gets it all” because part of his/her job description is to be completely available to the government to go whereever he/she is needed. Military personnel typically receive relatively low salaries, because they receive the remainder of their compensation in the form of room and board. Alaskan North Slope workers often live in barracks, eat at company mess halls, etc. while they are working in the oil fields. Is that socialism, by your definition? How about a domestic live-in housekeeper? Sheesh.
Don, I realize the term “socialist” is so offensive that it draws objection even when it is properly described. Our military is by necessity a nationalized entity; hence it is socialistic. Just as, perhaps, our banking system might be once our economic meltdown is over.
What’s your opinion, by the way, of the Munich beer hall quality of the McCain/Palin rallies?
Charles Krauthammer has an incisive article today, Questions of Character
Obama’s radical pals shed light on his cynicism, his ruthlessness, and his tolerance for the obscene., including:
Convicted felon Tony Rezko. Unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers. And the race-baiting Rev. Jeremiah Wright. It is hard to think of any presidential candidate before Barack Obama sporting associations with three more execrable characters. Yet let the McCain campaign raise the issue, and the mainstream media begin fulminating about dirty campaigning tinged with racism and McCarthyite guilt by association.
But associations are important. They provide a significant insight into character. They are particularly relevant in relation to a potential president as new, unknown, opaque, and self-contained as Obama. With the economy overshadowing everything, it may be too late politically to be raising this issue. But that does not make it, as conventional wisdom holds, in any way illegitimate.
…First, his cynicism and ruthlessness. He found these men useful, and use them he did. Would you attend a church whose pastor was spreading racial animosity from the pulpit? Would you even shake hands with — let alone serve on two boards with — an unrepentant terrorist, whether he bombed U.S. military installations or abortion clinics?
Most Americans would not, on the grounds of sheer indecency. Yet Obama did, if not out of conviction then out of expediency. He was a young man on the make, an unknown outsider working his way into Chicago politics. He played the game with everyone, without qualms and with obvious success.
…Second, and even more disturbing than the cynicism, is the window these associations give on Obama’s core beliefs. He doesn’t share Rev. Wright’s poisonous views of race nor Ayers’ views, past and present, about the evil that is American society. But Obama clearly did not consider these views beyond the pale. For many years he swam easily and without protest in that fetid pond.
Until now. Today, on the threshold of the presidency, Obama concedes the odiousness of these associations, which is why he has severed them. But for the years in which he sat in Wright’s pews and shared common purpose on boards with Ayers, Obama considered them a legitimate, indeed unremarkable, part of social discourse.
Do you? Obama is a man of first-class intellect and first-class temperament. But his character remains highly suspect. There is a difference between temperament and character. Equanimity is a virtue. Tolerance of the obscene is not.
These are wise thoughts. Obama is a bright and cool fellow, though his career reeks of poor character.
Peter @ 18,
“Only in modern, largely secular America would a fraud of a candidate with a totallly undistinguished record of accomplishment become president.”
Seriously. I still can’t believe Bush has been president for nearly 8 years!
Oh, wait. Were you talking about someone else?
Sam @ 28,
“This is slightly off point, but it reminds me of the saying that a Republican will complain about the cost of a govt program only when that program benefits the poor.”
Maybe off point, but important to think about. People in the US still seem to have a lingering idea that if someone is poor, it’s automatically that person’s fault.
Peter @ 31,
“Rather, we are saying that Obama is clearly a radical leftist who has associated with the terrorist, Ayers, and , Wright, the purveyor of a doctrine that casts Jesus Christ as a ‘black messiah’ and blacks as ‘the chosen people’.”
So do you call Jews out for saying they are God’s chosen people? Come on, Peter. People are prideful. They tend to think their people are God’s chosen.
I’d be surprised if someone as prideful as McCain didn’t think he was at least a little chosen.
After posting the following comment under a discussion that no one’s reading anymore, I thought I’d tranfer it here. It pertains to the quality of the McCain/Palin rallies and followed a comment that, according to some conservatives, the GOP seems no longer to even want to appeal to the educated voter. It’s class-war message now, most clearly delivered by Palin, and echoed endlessly by the talk radio jocks, is directed at rousing “Joe 6-pack’s” anger at Barack Obama.
“[W]hile the GOP is pushing educated folks away, it is also becoming increasingly hostile to the sensitivities of racial minorities.
“This may explain why we’re seeing so much rage at the McCain campaign rallies - rage, egged on by Palin in particular, against the ‘different’ candidate, the man who doesn’t see America like ‘we’ do, the mysterious man nobody really knows.
“Can you imagine such words describing any of the recent white Democratic challengers? Kerry, Gore, Dukakis, Mondale, McGovern? Nope. They were called elitists and out of touch liberals (acid, amnesty, abortion?), but they weren’t described as mysterious or ‘different.’ (Though Kerry caught flak for speaking French - another sign of GOP anti-intellectualism.)
“We’re entering dangerous territory here because it’s become plain that the GOP base, to whom McCain and Palin are so blatantly pandering, has absolutely no use for a highly educated black man.”
Michael @40, yes. We complain too loudly if our taxes go to help a fellow citizen survive, but not loudly enough (if at all) if they go to finance the bombing of, say, Afghan or Iraqi women and children.
Sam,
Amen. I also wonder why people who are perfectly willing to roll up their sleeves and physically help others are not happy to have some of their taxes go to help OTHERS roll up their sleeves and help, too.
I am proud to work for a public library. I often tell people it’s one of the positive things they can point to when they want to think of their taxes doing something good. You know, rather than paying for wars, or paying for people to stand on the side of the road and NOT fix the pot-holes.
Sam,
It is not the job of our government to make sure every body has a color T.V. and two pickups in the garage, with enough money to pay for the gas. Quite frankly I haven’t met a poor person since I left Botswanna som 26 years ago.
However it is the governments job to wage war where necessary. Unfortunately that often means innocent civilians are killed in the process of killing those who would have no qualms in killing our innocent civilians. But as a former military man, I would thing you of all people would realize that our government does more to cut down on collateral damage than any other super power in history. Quit slandering our military!
Those people don’t deserve it. Quite frankly I don’t believe you deserve them.
Scylding, that house painter *was* a leftist.
What about all those calls for sending the Christians to Guantanamo Bay out in the blogosphere?
Or the calls for McCain’s death and gang raping Sarah Palin?
Do you have any proof of your allegations of these chants? and if so, what about you applying the same question to Obama?
Did you like think that the scene in American Carol of Catholic priests breaking into an airliner cockpit was *real* or something? Christians don’t do that! Clue in.
J, and what about your side’s threatening riots all over the country if Obama doesn’t win or steal the election? Kind of like what his cousin Odinga did in Kenya when -he- lost -that- country’s election?
And truth is NOT the dark side. But you need to get out a little and stop believing the lies in the Obama media. The fresh air will do you good.
Should someone who doesn’t know who Chinese Gorden or the Mahdi were even be allowed to vote when we are in the same war, and when the Democrat candidate has been declared the Muslim messiah, which is the Mahdi? And by a prominent political figure in this country, no less?
God save us from ignoramuses, idiots and the evil, voting, and from the million and a half fraudulent votes.
Just because some Obaman agitators shout “kill him” (possibly referring to McCain) doesn’t begin to outweigh the mass murder of babies and newborns that Obama favors making a fundamental right.
Peter, correct, former muslim Jeremiah Wright is not a Christian, he is not preaching Christianity, and Obama is not a committed Christian. Believing in a different Jesus, a different gospel, and a quasi-Zoroastrian worldview is NOT Christianity.
Bror @ 45,
“Quite frankly I haven’t met a poor person since I left Botswanna som 26 years ago.”
Then you must not know any of the people working three jobs just to make sure their kids have clothes and food. Not everyone on public assistance is milking the gov’t. I lived in a small town in Illinois for nearly ten years. I knew poor people there. They weren’t using assistance to pay for cable. They were buying bread and eggs. I am totally baffled by your utter lack of compassion.
“However it is the governments job to wage war where necessary.”
Right. Like in Iraq. Now there’s a necessary war.
“Unfortunately that often means innocent civilians are killed in the process of killing those who would have no qualms in killing our innocent civilians.”
Hmmmm. I’m reminded of how often people get on soapboxes around here about abortion killing innocents. Apparently if it’s for “a good cause” it doesn’t mean the same thing. Don’t you think it might be the more compassionate thing to DIE rather than kill innocent people? Besides, there aren’t any Iraqis - military or otherwise - over here to kill our innocent civilians. But we’re sure over there killing their citizens.
I don’t remember Jesus saying anything about it being cool - or necessary - to kill innocent civilians. I only remember him saying things like “If you live by the sword, you’ll die by the sword,” and “Turn the other cheek.”
Oh, look, the nonbeliever can talk about Jesus, too!
Anon @ 46,
“…the Democrat candidate has been declared the Muslim messiah, which is the Mahdi? And by a prominent political figure in this country, no less?”
I’m not sure it’s accurate to call Minister Farrakhan a prominent political figure. He’s a religious figure. Also, he didn’t say Obama was the Messiah. He said “Barack Obama to me, is a herald of the Messiah. Barack Obama is like the trumpet that alerts you something new, something better is on the way.” He also said Obama “is not the Messiah for sure, but anytime he gives you a sign of uniting races, ethnic groups, ideologies, religions and makes people feel a sense of oneness, that’s not necessarily Satan’s work, that is, I believe, the work of God. (both quotes from WorldNetDaily)” Not exactly the same thing.
Don’t laypeople in the church speak from time to time and have the same things said about them? That the Lord was speaking through them? Possible that’s what Farrakhan was saying. But you like to grab things that back up what you say without looking at whether they are accurate quotes.
“Obama is not a committed Christian.” There you go again, judging people you don’t even know.
Michael, I don’t want you to go to hell. I’m not passing final judgment on you. I hope you come to understand what is true and what is not, that you repent and believe in Jesus Christ and are saved. I really do.
Calling good, good, and evil, evil is not passing judgment on people, it is simply saying what is. Not a product of my wishes, or of a group will to power, but simply what is. Reality.
Palin and McCain have not gone to the dark side. These days warning against leftism is not rabble rousing it is good old fashioned American patriotism. It is the left in America that is calling for death (see Daily Kos) of its political opponents. The right is standing for freedom and liberty. The claim by some posting here that Palin and McCain and their supporters are calling for Obama’s death are Nazi/commie style disinformation. These leftists think they can spread a lie long enough and eventually it will be believed. It is a lie. The love of death, the calls for murder come from the baby killing, Obama supporting left.
Don S #29 - I got left behind in the conversation, so this is quite a jump back.
Of course Palin wasn’t shouting “Kill him”, but she is also the one who is stirring up the fever and doesn’t take even the slightest effort to stop them. I’ve heard speakers reprimand their crowds before, and that’ exactly what Palin should have been doing. Purposefully stirring up crowds to the point where some of them are yelling to kill someone is wrong, and I’m saddened to have anyone do it, but especially shamed to see a Christian do it.
That’s not a single unstable person. There are multiple people shouting it out, and I’ve heard of it happening in a couple different places. She’s not responsible for a nutcase taking something to an extreme, but when there are multiple people doing something like that in response to her speeches and she does nothing, it’s a shameful and wrong thing and there’s no way around it.
Yes, she should be pointing out something like that, but there are easily many ways to communicate without stirring up hatred in a crowd.
Greg, I’ll be kind and assume you’re on a dial-up connection and can’t look on YouTube to see videos of those happenings you ignorantly claim to be lies and disinformation. Yes, Kaily Kos is drumming up extremist sentiments and hatred, but that’s not an excuse for Palin to follow suit.
I rarely go on utube so if I am wrong I am wrong. I would be shocked if genuine rightwingers were yelling this stuff. It sounds like the stock in trade of the American left. Christianity doesnt sanction political murder. I don’t even approve of my coreligonists Bonhoefers involvement in the plot to kill Hitler. The Apostles never called for the assination of either Nero or Caligula and not even Hitler was as evil as these men. Has anyone looked into the possibility that these hecklers were left wing plants? That this is some type of leftist stunt to shift the debate away from legitimate focus on Obama’s terrorist and extreme leftist, marxist, associates? What ever the case, political murder is out of the question. It is absolutely unchristian.
The fact that some nutcases are calling for it should not alter the debate. We should continue to expose the extremist associations of the probable next president of the United States
Jonathan @ 32 and Webmonk @ 51: What is your evidence that Palin even heard the comment, or understood what it was? Here’s a quote from the Huffington Post of 10/6 regarding the “kill him” incident:
” UPDATE: Radar reports that the Secret Service is investigating the potential threat against Barack Obama at a Sarah Palin rally:
The Secret Service is following up on media reports today that someone in the crowd at a McCain/Palin event suggested killing Barack Obama, according to Secret Service spokesman Malcolm Wiley. The shout of “kill him” followed a Sarah Palin rant on Obama’s relationship with radical Chicagoan Bill Ayers.
Wiley says the Secret Service did not begin looking into the matter until press reports, namely Dana Milbank’s article in the Washington Post, surfaced today, because no agents at the event heard anything. “The Secret Service did not hear any threatening statements directed at targets under its protection and no threatening statements were reported to us by law enforcement or citizens at the event,” Wiley told Radar. Also unclear: whether the remark was directed at Obama or Ayers if the words were actually “kill” and “him.” ”
So, the Secret Service didn’t hear the comment. Apparently, only Dana Milbank did. Let’s get a grip people!
Look, I’m no Obama supporter. But:
The comments on this blog over the last week or so (comments, not posts), has illustrated to me why in general society, the “Christian Right” have relugated to the lu.., I mean to the place where it has been relugated. Some Conservative posters here though are honourable men - webmonk, it was a pleasure. I’m out of here.
ok so palin was knee deep into the aIP. her husband was a card carrying member. the founder said he hated the united states and united states government……
mc cain had his daliance with the SDS…….
This IS all fair game.
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_alaska_independence_party.php
my two points would be….
1) the ayers connection is NOT new news. why didn´t mc cain bring this all up 5 months ago if it is such a burning issue. there is no NEW information that come out that has spurred the attention just now. smells of desparation to me.
2) why didn´t Mc Cain have the cahunas to raise this issue during the debate. face to face. mano a mano?
3) I see the “fair ” here. it IS fair game to delve into this. I am missing the “balanced”. where is the equal concern to see if the extremely negative accusations about mc cain and palin are right? and don´t gimme that “well! that was the Rolling Stone that published that article!” I am not seeing liberal media being slammed by you all when they do something on ayers….
IF even half of this stuff is true, McCain should not be allowed to be close to the nuclear trigger. and they quote credible sources.
by the way, the press down here is awash with women who say they were mc cain´s “girlfriend” when he visited down here. the pictures of these women are sorta jarring…. they look HIS age, not the age of the women he now surrounds himself with. they report that he was skilled at kissing…… no i am not making this stuff up…
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain
dr vieth. it would be cool to focus on things that intersect faith with politics/culture/society/issues.
your focus on vocation is what has made your blog a great read in the past. I especially appreciate those issues you raise that defy a tidy answer. issues that have not yet been societally transformed into a bumper sticker sized political stand.
One great example of a possible post would be about organ donors. I understand that now they wait till the heart stops beating for a very very short time while injecting drugs to preserve it…. and the heart starts beating right away when transplanted….. it turns out that there is no “moment of death” and the decision that someone is dead seems… from a recent slate article I read… to be extremely arbitrary and left up to a doctor to decide……
issues like ayers….. new party RADICAL left. why do republicans always feel compelled to pile on adjectives. IS there such a thing as someone being leftist or socialist or even communist withhout being “radical” or do leftist (which means as little as “conservative ” these days…) socialist and communist automatically carry the weight of radical, thus “radical” is appended purely for manipulative value?
your article does not establish that being a new party member means “radical leftist” any more than my being a “democrat” means that I am a radical liberal.
actually i would vote for ron paul if he were on the ballot. maybe i will write him in….. not sure…
Is Rolling stone now a legitimate source of news? Would these be objective people?
When the NY Times lies, what can we say about the Rolling Stones?
The left must be really panicked.
Prove your assertions, people, if you are going to accuse Christians of being national socialists, ok? Especially those of you who are always demanding incessant citations by orthodox Christians.
What exactly has Palin said that is an actual incitement for Christians to commit violence? That appears to be another of your charges. I don’t mean her saying true things that the hard left and the abortion-guilty don’t want known, I mean actual incitement to go and kill people?
As Don points out the Secret Service did not hear this, so what is your source for these charges against a genuine Christian?
For my part, I am against anyone being killed apart from due process and Biblical standards of witness.
As others have noted, the Left is calling for the torture and death of the Christians if Obama wins. That is seen in many places online. The hatred, the spittle-mouthed hatred is frightening. This is looking so much like mid-1930s Germany with Hitler running for Reichskanzler, and the leftists straining at the leash to commit krystalnacht.
Scylding, you have become so far out of the mainstream of Christendom that you think that views which would have been considered liberal 100 years ago (let alone 1,000) seem to you to be lunatic and right-wing. Read things written in the past, over the past 3500 years, just just current materials. Listen to your ancestors in the Faith.
Lutherans have understood about vocation long before the Constitution ever got amended.
If I recall correctly, going into the R primary season, the Mormon technocrat was the man to beat. So the “right-wing Christian fundamentalists” got behind the Baptist preacher, throwing the nomination to McCain.
Perhaps it’s not too great an exaggeration to say that the “left-wing Christian fundamentalists” swung the D nomination away from the ex-First Lady.
Anyhow, a Romney/Clinton race would have been more “normal.”
Thanks a lot, winger Christian fundamentalists.
There is now hard proof that Obama was in active contact with Raila Odinga and supporting him as his followers murdered 1500 Christians, burned 300 churches - including one full of women and children who had gone their to see refuge from Odinga’s Luo mobs, and made half a million Kenyans homeless. Odinga also used racism in driving this campaign of hate (Luo versus Kikuyu)
It is asked what an Obama/Pelosi/Reid administration would be like.
Consider that Carville and other Obamans have warned (threatened?) riots all over if Obama is not elected.
Let us hope that that is only a worse case scenario that will never come to pass.
However it is clear that Obama has NO PROBLEM with murdering Christians, burning churches, making hundreds of thousands homeless, and using racist tactics, in the pursuit of power.
Supporting the strongly pro-abortion, pro-homosexual “marriage” (at least when he was governor just previous to his run) Romney was not an option for any Christian. Governor Huckabee was an option, as were Brownbeck, Keyes, and Hunter. Guiliani was also a liberal, and Thompson who knows what he -really- believes - though he certainly has the sort of personality that would be comfortable to have in a president.
So blaming believing Christians for McCain makes no sense at all. How is McCain much more conservative than Romney or Guiliani? He might be moving more conservatively, as he learns things from Governor Palin - his chief motivating principles seem to be the country, honor, and doing the right thing. Knowing what the right thing -was- hasn’t always been his strong suit, but that may be improving.
“So blaming believing Christians for McCain makes no sense at all.”
Sorry, Anon. I meant self-identified Christians.
Anon,
Blaming Obama for supposedly agreeing with what happened in Kenya is going too far.
Allen,
Where is proof that anyone making threats identified himself a Christian, much less as “right wing fundamentalist Christians?” How did anyone against killing the unborn get the automatic label of “right wing fundamentalist Christians?” The Obama attack machine on peaceful discussion groups is becoming obvious. The attacks follow a common pattern designed to disrupt rational thought.
rlewer, it would be, if it weren’t true. But it is true. He and his campaign continued to advise Odinga during that period.
Allen, I don’t see what sort of causality could lead you to reasonably make that accusation. Nor your attack on orthodox Christians as only being self-identified. Perhaps you could explain by you mean by that, and what you mean by the blaming? How does that work?
rlewer,
I don’t have a link handy, but I am personally acquainted with many self-identified Christians. Some have political opinions generally associated with the right, and some have those generally associated with the left. And they all have selected Bible passages to support their political views. It’s very important to them to have these handy. They serve as a substitute for rational thought.
My point is that the fundamentalist Christians of each sort played a role in the selection of the candidates of the two official government parties. In the R case, the role played was inadvertent to the selection. The fundamentalist right-wing Christians preferred Huckbee. McCain’s only virtue was that he isn’t one of the Ds (and he isn’t Mormon).
In the D case, the role played by the fundamentalist left-wing Christians was intentional - Obama’s some sort of quasi-messiah haven’t you heard? Apparently, we’re all going to join hands and be nice to each other, and then save the whales or the planet, or some such thing, all in the name of God. And His chosen one.
It is the role of the Church to go into the world teaching and baptizing in the name of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew, of course). It is the role of the State to judge with justice and to defend the rights of the weak (Proverbs, of course).
I think the attack machine phenomenon must have something to do with the fact that there are only two major parties and nobody is exactly in love with either candidate. Inevitably, most vote against the one he holds in greater dis-esteem. The politicos know that and arrange things to conform.
Not that you or I or anyone else in particular is some sort of Pavlov’s dog, but in the aggregate, it works. If it didn’t, they wouldn’t do it. They’re highly paid professionals.
Allen,
You left a few things out from you description of the mission of the Church. In so doing, we are to make *disciples* teaching them everything which Jesus taught us. And Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, so that includes the entire Bible. The Church is to rightly preach the Word and administer the Sacraments. It is to practice church discipline. It is to pray. It will suffer persecution. It is to praise and thank God. Civil servants and delegates are not outside of the group ‘world’ that we are to go to, and teach all Jesus said. Including how they might rightly live out their vocation in obedience to the Living God.
The civil government has the duty of defending the populace from harm by armies from without or brigands within. To do justice, punish the wicked and reward good deeds.
Your understanding of “right-wing fundamentalist Christians” doesn’t compare very well with the reality ‘on the ground’, and you have repeated the same inaccuracies after I corrected you. You sound bitter that the pro-abortion, pro-homosexual ‘marriage’ Romney didn’t beat out the other near-dozen candidates. I think you will find that these people whom you despise also supported Romney, Guiliani, Thompson, Paul, Brownbeck, Hunter and Keyes. If they’d have been united, they’d have found someone better than McCain.
In this election a great deal is at stake. Joe Biden said it was the most important election in our lifetimes. He might be right. If Obama gets to do all that he is promised - and if the House and Senate remain in Dem hands - then he will get to do so, then the Republic is finished, and the church will see persecution, and with no free land left to flee too the way the Pilgrims and Puritans and much later the Neo (or Old) Lutherans from Saxony fled to these shores.
I doubt it will happen all at once. First, abortion and homosexual ‘marriage’ will be made “fundamental rights” (obviously not granted by our Creator) and the thought crimes bill will pass. Within weeks. Likely by the beginning of Lent (which in a way might not end until Christ returns) Then in the coming months first a few ‘examples’ whether prominent Christians or pastors lacking a strong denominational support structure will be fined or arrested. Human Rights Commissions like those in Canada will be enacted. It will be illegal to picket abortuaries, to give counseling to women with crisis pregnancies that doesn’t emphasize the option of abortion, and so forth. Other things Obama has promised, like universal mandatory ‘voluntary’ service will take a little longer. The Supreme Court will be firmly taken over very quickly as the Dems who have improperly (illegally?) held up Bush’s appointees for vacancies these last 8 years, will cooperate with The One with eager haste. All the vacancies will be filled and the abortion regime and anti-Christian attitude will be stuck in the judicial branch for possibly the remainder of our lives.
The other things bringing this country towards the Venezuelan model will take a little longer.
This is a time for humility before God and earnest prayer, not a time for bitterness or resentment or despair. This is not a time for an unBiblical scrupulosity trying to find a candidate with ‘perfect’ views on everything, rather, knowing that no man is perfect in this fallen world (save Christ Jesus,) we must vote as will best save tens of millions of lives and preserve our freedom to follow Christ legally and openly.
I’ve quoted Adams elsewhere, and that is the question before us:
“Our contest is not only whether we ourselves shall be free, but whether there shall be left to mankind an asylum on earth for civil and religious liberty.” –Samuel Adams
It is far truer this election that it was during the War for Independence.
Michael the Littleboot #47,
So here is the deal. I probably did make a little light of the financial hardships many in the United States face. I have had some hard times myself. One thing that keeps it in perspective for me, is having lived in Botswana as a Child. There people basically ate porridge three meals a day. They didn’t have anything else. Meat was too valuable to eat, you kept it on the hoof for market. And the people would have killed to have the opportunity for one job, much less three.
I do believe, actually, as ludicrous as it might seem to you, that Iraq is a necessary war. Jesus himself may have said he who lives by the sword dies by the sword, no one knows that maxim better than those who serve. But he never debased the vocation of Soldier. He understood the need for it. (By the way, he said that to Peter, whose vocation was not that of a Soldier, but who was given a sword, and died by that sword. That sword being the word of God.) So don’t go making Jesus out to be the “make love not war” hippie of the nineteen sixties, he wasn’t that. Turn the other cheek? Yes I might be called to do that, I’m not called to make my neighbor do the same.
We as Lutherans, also believe that this Jesus you quote, is the same commander of the army of the lord, you find in Joshua 5:13, who led Joshua into battle with Jericho, and the rest of Palestine. So I will hold judgment on what he believes about collateral damage in war. He certainly didn’t hold back there.
rlewer @ 64,
You wrote, “Where is proof that anyone making threats identified himself a Christian, much less as “right wing fundamentalist Christians?””
I have searched my remarks and cannot find anything I wrote along those lines. Can you quote me back to myself so I can avoid any such misunderstandings in the future. My own thought is that they were D party agents provocateur.
Anon @66,
You wrote, “Allen, I don’t see what sort of causality could lead you to reasonably make that accusation. Nor your attack on orthodox Christians as only being self-identified. Perhaps you could explain by you mean by that, and what you mean by the blaming? How does that work?”
First, the only “accusation” or “blaming” I made was the observation that the right-wing Christian fundamentalists threw the nomination to McCain by voting for Huckabee(is that what you mean?). Is that not mathematically correct? Of course, we’ll never know for sure whether Romney would have won out over Obama. So, yes, technically, it’s too early to speak of blame. The election isn’t for another 3 weeks.
Second, this is the first time I have ever heard that referring to Christians as “self-identified Christians” as some sort of an attack. For the record, I am a self-identified Christian of long standing myself. For the record, that’s the kind they used to feed to the lions.
politifact accuses the mccain campaign of LYING about the obama ayers connection.
excerpt:
This attack is false, but it’s more than that – it’s malicious.
It unfairly tars not just Obama, but all the other prominent, well-respected Chicagoans who also volunteered their time to the foundation. They came from all walks of life and all political backgrounds, and there’s ample evidence their mission was nothing more than improving ailing public schools in Chicago. Yet in the heat of a political campaign they have been accused of financing radicalism. That’s Pants on Fire wrong.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/790/
Allen,
In the context of you using the ‘hate term’ ‘fundamentalist’ you stated ’self-identified’ of a group you were condeming (statistically incorrectly, or Huckabee would have gotten the nomination), it sounded like an attack, and that you were suggesting that they weren’t and you and whatever your group is -were- genuine Christians. Glad I misunderstood, and that that has been corrected.
Then someone quotes an Obama site claiming that the Ayers link is a lie:
However, the close alliance between Ayers and Obama is not only a fact (though Obama tried to cover his paper trail, ultimately the law defeated that allowing discovery of relavant documents which had not been destroyed) Ayers was a mentor to Obama. He launched Obama’s career. he gave Obama tens of millions of dollars to distribute to the political indoctrination of school children. All of this stuff is established fact. It is Obama who is the liar.
http://obamology.blogspot.com/
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/13/updated-a-dangerous-mixture-of-lies-and-omissions-obama-ayers-wright-and-farrakhan/
Anon, I have to apologize for using the phrase “right-wing Christian fundamentalist.” I knew, of course, that it is generally used by the left as a pejorative. I thought that including the phrase “left-wing Christian fundamentalist” in the post would indicate that I meant it in a “dictionary” sense. I was wrong. Sorry. Me stupido.
factcheck and politfact on the obama ayers connection
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/790/
I posted a very long list of fact checks that show, even with photos of documentation, that your highly biased propaganda organs are lying, fw. Dr. Veith hasn’t approved it yet.
Face it, Obama is Ayers’ protege, not merely a neighbor.
It was earlier asked by Dr. Veith what an Obama administration would look like.
Here is a foretaste:
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77825
We must pray.
Anon,
I know, I’m late to the party. But this was priceless: “Calling good, good, and evil, evil is not passing judgment on people, it is simply saying what is. Not a product of my wishes, or of a group will to power, but simply what is. Reality.” Only if you can prove it. Which you can’t. So saying something is the Truth without any real cause to say that is just talking to hear yourself, or writing to read yourself. I’m glad you’re so certain. Meanwhile, the “Reality” of which you spoke goes on without you.
the annenbergs, who recently endorsed mc cain for president, funded Ayers programs to the tune of $50 million dollars.
obama may have associated with ayers, but conservative republicans aligned with mc cain funded him.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/republicans-who.html
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