I confess this confession because no one has been able to show me where it is objectively false….I confess it because of the human speculation and opinion that it lacks. I confess it because it is the clearest path to my Crucified and now Risen Savior, Jesus Christ.

Nothing will come between me and this true expression of Christianity… including Lutherans.’

We can only tell you, and invite you. We can’t convince you of anything, even as we stand completely convinced.
Once again, I’m going to sound harsh amd mean to you, but you are arguing entirely from your point of view and your own reason, and we are not. Thus there is that chasm between not only two worldviews, but two worlds. You seem to think we’re telling you ‘we’re right; you’re wrong’, when what we’re telling you is what our faith tells us, from outside ourselves and our own reason. Indeed, in spite of ourselves and our own reason.
We didn’t even achieve getting over ourselves to arrive at this; we’ve achieved nothing.
But I and others can only tell you this, and the only explanation we can offer is that we heard it and continue to hear it. We didn’t just think about it or conclude, or even look for it, in many cases. What many of us looked for–especially us converts–was something entirely different that what has found us.
There’s really nothing that answers all your doubts and questions and arguments, but the Word itself, if you hear it. And, if you are to hear it, you must be where it’s preached, sung, and spoken.

I also have really appreciated these conversations (also between the others).

I appreciate Bror’s comment about the Word in #93. I wonder what you will say to that in light of our little interchange about how highly you value the Word of the Bible. Thank you for clarifying that a bit for me.

As for meaning, I do not buy the “spit” that we create our own meaning. I believe in objective truth after all. Its all around in the world you and I live in. Those who want to create their own meaning find themselves disobeying their own worldview everytime the bills have to be paid.

I want to suggest that you buy and download Dr. Rosenbladt’s lecture “The Gospel For Those Broken By The Church” available at http://www.newreformationpress.com/
You could listen to it at your own leisure away from work sometime.

You might also be able to find it in print form somewhere, but I would very much like to hear whether or not you think it speaks to you and to your situation.

To answer your question, in times when I am confronted with meaninglessness in life, I usually sit a stew for a while and then when I’m finally over myself, I again turn to God’s Word and Sacrament and let Him comfort me in His way which I’ll think I understand at the time but then later, I will marvel in that I hardly knew what was going on at all.

It sounds like you have grown as a person through your own experiences and trials. Wonderful. I think most people usually do no matter what their background or faith. You find you have grown into yourself through being liberated from belief. I have grown into myself through a different sort of liberating Work. Lot’s of churches today mess up the New Life in Christ by creating their own hegemony of Christian personality. I think that runs contrary to what the freedom of a Christian can actually do for the individual. Of course believers are all one in Christ, but each one is to celebrate the other-ness of each person (and I don’t think we need to limit this to Christians either). When God fills the believer with new life, we are not only in perfect relationship with our Creator, but also the reordered relationship with other people, creatures, and things (as I think I have hinted at above) ought to be seen as beginning to be made new as well. I guess I’m just trying to say that we ought not try to change you or anybody else with faith. I believe God does this shaping as He works in this world through the vocation of every person (whether or not we acknowledge His “hand” in it all or not).

Thanks for being open and honest. I appreciate it.

Michael – thank you for being so open to sharing your life on this blog. Even though we may not be on the same page as far as our beliefs go, I appreciate how much you think about these issues. The questions you ask are questions I have as well – this particular blog entry has been enlightening for me.

We are all saved by believing in Jesus death and resurrection as satisfaction for our sins – a substitutionary atonement. Lutherans and Baptists both say they believe this in their formal statements of faith. Lutheran’s believe that Baptism is one of the means through which God gives belief. Baptist’s have a believer’s baptism because they know that Jesus commanded Baptism and don’t want to disobey Scripture (gotta admit I’m a little unclear as to any other reason why Baptists want to be baptized – please, any baptists are welcome to enlighten me here as to official baptist teachings). Anyway, let’s just assume that the 7 year old baptist does hear the Gospel of Jesus death and resurrection for the forgiveness of his/her sins – if the Baptist family and their church are worth their salt the seven year old has thoroughly been taught the substitutionary atonement. Assuming that the seven year old believes that this is true (again by God’s working faith in the boy by the power of His efficacious Word). Then He is saved. The Lutheran will always long for the assurance of Baptismal regeneration for this boy, but we do not absolutely need it to give comfort to the parents and family of this poor child who died. We know the child died in the faith because he/she was a believer.

Let’s go younger. We have comfort for the Lutheran family too, when their child dies before he/she can be baptized. We have less specific promise in God’s Word, but we have some comfort from the Word of God, especially Jesus’ own words to parents who are deathly afraid for their children’s life. In several instances the children do not hear Jesus’ Word, are not touched by Him, but the prayers and pleading of the parents on behalf of their child are answered by Christ (by God).

It is important to keep the comfort that we give to families as faithful to what the Bible actually says. These unfortunate instances always keep us on our toes so that we stick to what God’s Word actually says without overreaching with what we wish God’s Word would promise.

Great question. Hope this helps you (BKW #91, 92) see how my faith in God’s life-giving word helps me to comfort folks who do go through these things. Unfortunately these questions are too often much more than hypothetical.

This is a difficult conversation to follow, there being so many voices in it. You seem to be doing pretty well, but it boggles me. Something to remember: when Dr. Veith posts another article or two, this thread will pass into the archives, and will be harder to find. I wonder if there is anything he can do to preserve it.

You identify your Christian college as Greenville College, and invite me to look it up online. I did. Did you know the guys in “Jars of Clay”, or were they there after you graduated? Also, I have read that Hogue Hall (the first building on the campus) is being demolished due to structural problems caused by the passage of time. I further note that the “Theological Assumptions” of Greenville College mention the cross of Christ only once (when the statement thereof quotes the Apostles Creed); see here:

http://www.greenville.edu/content/view/838/262/

That may seem like a small thing to you, but to me (and to a lot of Lutherans I expect) it seems significant.

You ask where you can find Lutheran doctrine. I suggest here:

http://www.bookofconcord.org/whatisalutheran.html

The Book of Concord is of course also available in print form, and contains all those documents we refer to as the Lutheran Confessions. You may not agree with what’s contained in them, but I hope you will agree with me that Lutheran theology is remarkably interconnected and internally consistent. This aspect of Lutheran theology is one of the major reasons I am a Lutheran, even though Lutheranism fits much less neatly into my national culture than many of the religious choices available to me.

I agree with you that it might be helpful if we responded more to the questions you ask and ask you questions of our own. For example, you ask @85 why it is not ok to question God, or have a “sit down” with God, or have a God that doesn’t “cut you off at the pass” all the time. You say you are not asking for a Genie. What exactly ARE you asking for?

I think you mean that God does not communicate with you in a way that you can accept, but I hope you can see why this has flown right past most of us. You see, we DO think God communicates with us through His Word and sacraments by the power of His Holy Spirit. I don’t expect God to send me a personal e-mail with specific dialogue like this one. On the other hand, “the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith, even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth…”. See Luther’s Small Catechism, 3rd article of the Apostles Creed. In this way, by leaving us His Word and working in us through His sacraments, God communicates with me all the time. If this is not enough of a “sit down” for you, what is it that you want?

You say we should not quote the Bible to you, because you have read it. I’m not sure how we are discuss our faith and beliefs without mentioning the Bible. You say we have no proof, but the Bible consists largely of the testimony of witnesses reduced to writing. This is in fact the kind of “proof” that is accepted by people who have to make decisions about events at which they were not present all the time. Why is this not enough for you?

You say Christians get the God they want. I said earlier that Christians get the kind of God that most people DON’T want, including us. The truth is, if I had my way (in my fallen nature) God would not be what He is. He would conform to my idea of what a God should be like. He would set up a system that I could fulfill without any help from Him so I wouldn’t have to feel like such a charity case. I haven’t taken a poll or anything, but I think that this is what most people want from God, which is why most religions are works based.

Last time you responded to me directly, you suggested that God, if there is one, ought not punish you for following your own path. But a path, by definition, leads toward a destination and away from other destinations. If you choose to follow a path that leads away from God, heaven, joy, etc., and that leads towards Hell, how is it God’s fault if Hell is where you ultimately arrive?

One last thing. You keep saying that the harm we cause to others may be sins against those other people, but not against God. Don’t you think that God should care if we harm other people? Aren’t they His creation too? Shouldn’t the welfare of God’s other children be important enough for Him to feel that He is harmed if they are harmed?

This is a good conversation. I hope we can keep it going next week.

Great question – I have so often wondered this very same thing. For example, Lutherans baptize babies – Baptists don’t. What happens if a Baptist dies before they are baptized? Will they go to hell? I’ve been taught that it is through my baptism that I received faith – so the Baptist who was never baptized – should I assume that they then don’t have the gift of faith and are therefore doomed? I am asking this to all as a serious question because I have been perplexed by this very issue that Michael raises.